UTG min raise, call, CU re-min? Now What?

I'm holding A,3 off in the BB. stack is still 1500 early in the tourney when the UTG min raises, one caller and the CU re-mins. should I call to see a flop or fold because I may be facing a big pocket pair? if I call, perhaps I hit a str8, two pair and double through...

questionable play I think when I folded...

I'm definitely no authority here, but I don't really like getting involved here...there are still players that have min-raised and got reraised still to act and your hand really isnt that good...there will definitely be a better spot to get into the action IMO.

[ononimo]

super-easy fold. the only flops that are really good for you are 245r and 333 and probably 33x ... obviously, those flops are extremely unlikely and even if they hit, chances are that none of those flops are going to make you a ton of money unless someone is donking it up with AA or KK that they aren't going to get away from.

two pair isn't so hot for you since your 3 is very easily counterfeited.

How'bout this scenario...MY GF (girlfriend, sheesh with all these abbreviations GF may mean good fold!) she asked me to call since it was her tournament.. I made the mistake of folding after she came back from the bathroom and wanted me to call.. I suggested that it was a folding hand (given the circumstances) and folded anyway... Bad move..
1) it was her tourney and she is capable of making those mistakes or correct plays as she feels the need..
2) I just shouldn't have intervened since the flop came perfect against the perfect hand to bust and double through.

FLOP 2-4-5 against a pocket pair of FIVES...ugh.. anyhow...In hindsite, it only cost me two bets to potentially double through and including the limper and implied odds gave me the opportunity to get LUCKY..

Bottom line.. I would have folded... My GF would have doubled through and considering her expertise ( I don't say that loosely ) had a huge chance at winning the tourney.

She is sharing this post with the following PS

ps..(written by pissed of girlfriend..seriously)

ok guys
1) i've been playing poker for a living for 2 years so
2) even though i was just messing around, killing time on some stupid low limit tournament my poker skills/thought process are still intact
3) he was mad so he started this whole post AGAINST my wishes (yet again) because, no offense guys, but i KNEW you'd all answer with the predictable "fold" because it's the simple,easy to play, i don't know what to do after the flop answer and
4) you are all CLEARLY WRONG (my boyfriend included). for the following reasons:
- we started the tourney and all have 1500 in chips blinds are 10-20...so the UTG moron min raises and the second moron min raises again...i now have to call a total of 40 chips compared to their 3000 combined in stacks!!!
- two things are possible:
1: they have AA and KK (or similar hands) respectively
2: they have marginal crap

if the scenario is 1: i obviously don't go broke with ONE PAIR. i am conscious enough to KNOW my kicker isn't good...jesus and if the answer is 2: i might have the best hand even if i just flop one pair....i can find out pretty cheap what the situation is since these guys are clearly not very agressive nor bright...

so on implied odds ALONE it's an obvious call because i can hit an A-3-x flop or a 3-3-x flop or 2-4-5 for that matter and i WILL hit it more than 3000/40 times. AND even if the pure math is less than that it doesn't matter because the IMPLIED math of having such a huge chip lead in the beginning of the tournament is INFINITELY important in helping me actually WIN it.

of course, since god has a sense of humor, the PERFECT example of what i was talking about DID happen. the utg moron raised 55s and flopped top set, i flopped the straight i could of check raised all in (since he bet most of his stack) and doubled through with ALMOST NO RISK (i am a 2 to 1 favorite on the flop. about as good as it gets to get someones chips all in).

to illustrate the point further, in another tourney today i was in the BB with Q-6 of spades (middle of tourney, stacks ok sized and blinds about 50-100). one guy limped early and the button idiot MIN RAISED! i KNEW he had AA or at worst KK (but i was 89% sure AA) i STILL called and it was CORRECT. all 3 of us in the hand had decent chip stacks, the first limper wasn't short enough to just push and make me make a decision preflop. and if he did push his huge stack i can get of cheap yet again (for ONE small bet) and again, i reiterate, only a moron would think ONE pair of QQs or my 66s was good...i knew BEFORE the flop what one of the players had with almost CERTAINTY and waited for 2 pair or better....what happened was a flop of Q-6-5 (2 spades) and i checked, first guy bet the pot, button moron NOW pushes all in and i re-raised all in with my bigger stack isolating him with, yes, his AA and cracking them with my two pair.

in conclusion, when people min raise they are making TWO huge mistakes
1) they give me implied odds to call and
2) they are giving away the strength of their hand (MOST of the time they have monsters, sometimes they have 55s but it's rare)

ok...that's it...i'm done ranting...i'm not mad about losing the stupid tourney online. that's not the point. but it's about having my bf do exactly the OPPOSITE of what i ask (that's a whole other post) AND about having my poker judgement questioned. yes, we all have more to learn about poker every single day....but some things are learned from experience and become very obvious the more you play and the more confidence you have in your POST FLOP play. it's a 7 card game people....

good night...
j

[yvesaint]

hey sweet if it worked that one time it works every time!!!

[ononimo]

i'm not reading all of your GF's reply b/c it's late and i'm not in the mood to read that much. i think i caught the basic gist though (cheap, implied odds, blah blah).

while i'm not disputing any of that, if you're going to make that argument for calling with A3o in early position, you could make the same argument to call with any two cards at that blind level, right? unless you are an EXPERT player capable of making great reads and letting go of tricky hands, that logic is going to lead you to spew a lot of chips early in the tournament while waiting for the perfect flop against an opponent with the perfect second-best hand.

the only valid reason that you (the BF) were wrong for folding was because it was HER tournament and she told you to call. was being right to fold (which you were) worth all this hassle? clearly the answer is: NO.

good night.

[Exitonly]

No.. it's definitely a fold. You're not closing the action, so you're not even guaranteed to get in for th 40 chips. and when you do get in for the 40 chips, you dont hit the flops you're looking for often enough. AND WHEN YOU DO hit the flops you want, you're not always goig to win. See the hand you would have hit, his top set is going to draw out on you pretty often.

Calling here is DEFINTIEYL a leak in your game, and if you want to keep playing for a living, might aswell fix it up.



edit: just to toss in some more things.. WHen you hit your hand you're not always going to get paid off. And sometimes when you don't hit your hand, you're going to lose some chips, like when you're finding out that your one pair isn't good.

[ononimo]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling here is DEFINTIEYL a leak in your game, and if you want to keep playing for a living, might aswell fix it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

shh ... this is why playing in California and Vegas is so profitable for folks like us.

[ononimo]

[ QUOTE ]
AND even if the pure math is less than that it doesn't matter because the IMPLIED math of having such a huge chip lead in the beginning of the tournament is INFINITELY important in helping me actually WIN it.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is also wrong. having T3000 or T4500 when everyone else is at T1500 and blinds are still 10/20 is nice but it's not nearly as helpful to your chances of winning as you think, especially given the way you acquired your chips.

well, ononimo, i'm not sure if your LAST post was agreeing or disagreeing with me (aka is this why players like you and i who live in Cali make money because we CAN outplay people after the flop OR you are implying you make money off of fish like me who make this calls)...i preferr the former interpretation so i'll stick with that [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

and i'll add that YES it's because total newbies like ExitOnly don't understand the game. they read a book, think they know the hands and odds but don't understand that poker is ALL circumbstance....WHO, WHAT, WHERE, WHEN, HOW.
first he was WRONG, i was not in early position but in the BB. he was right that i did not CLOSE the action but i already addressed that issue in my first post (aka if the first limper made a re-raise move i was out so i do limit my loss to $40 to see the flop). he was also wrong with his vague "well you won't flop anything often enough" or "your two pair can get counterfeited" blah blah BS....dude, how do you think you WIN a tournament if you don't trap with two pair? if you're looking for CERTAINTY, honey, don't play poker and DEFINITLEY don't play tournaments....you're LUCKY to get the better end of a coin flip later on in a tournament, to be a 2 to 1 favorite or close is a DREAM...

and as for the "hey if you think you can keep doing this for a living you should fix this LEAK in your game", you're just cracking me up, kid. though i mostly play limit cash games as my bread and butter (and before you all go crazy on the "limit players don't know [censored] about nl" crap let me emphasize that all of your little idols from ivey to negraneu MADE their bankrolls on limit and STILL pay for their "i wanna be a tv superstar" tournament entry fees with the good old $4k-$8k game so spare me the "you can't be good at both limit and nl" criticism) my "bad" call with A-3 is exactly what makes your weak/tight/passive game types a LEAK....a good poker player is one that makes BETTER DECISIONS (ha, my boyfriend is now reading over my shoulder and agreeing...guess this post fiasco DID help mend our little fight...so i'll thank you all for that!) ...back to what i was saying....the way you make money is by making BETTER DECISIONS than your opponents when the money really gets involved...you give them the nickles and dimes and take their dollars in one swoop...so i WANT to get in a lot of pots and make MORE decisions because as long as i make a good play and my opponent makes a mistake i MAKE a little Positive Expected Value EVERY TIME...that's how good players win tournaments...they get in A LOT of pots...they make YOU make the decisions..sometimes they flat call in the BB with A-s sometimes with AA....they trap you AFTER the flop, etc...

if you want to win tournaments you need to get involved and know when you're beat. my hands illustrated that. that's all i can say...

and kid, if i had a "serious leak" in my game, it would have dried this well WAY before the last 2 years were done...yet here i am, paying my bills....things that make you go "hmmmm" ? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

bye bye