Poor set line

PinkSteel · #1 05-23-2005, 07:50 AM

My turn play is just horrible, but please comment anywhere....

Reads: Not much. Typically loose table. Only 9 hands with Villain, but he saw most of those flops.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25BB (9 handed) converter

CO ($23.55)
Button (Villain) ($16.5)
SB ($4.45)
BB ($26.65)
UTG ($41.75)
Hero ($28.5)
MP1 ($56.75)
MP2 ($32.96)
MP3 ($7.5)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
1 fold, Hero calls $0.25, 3 folds, CO calls $0.25, Button (Villain) calls $0.25, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.10) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets $0.25, Hero raises to $1, CO folds, Villain calls $1, BB folds.

Turn: ($3.35) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $2, Villain raises to $4, Hero raises to $10, Villain calls $11.25 (All-In), Hero calls $5.25.

River: ($33.85)

theredpill5 · #2 05-23-2005, 07:54 AM

I don't think your play is horrible. Are you telling me that he had a J8 or Q J ? That is really the only hands that I see that are beating you. However, if you just called his raise on the turn, you would be getting 4 to 1 to hit the full house on the river. If you missed, you could fold to any big bet.

PinkSteel · #3 05-23-2005, 08:11 AM

Thanks, I'll post results in a bit... but I wasn't satisfied with my response to Villain's turn raise. In the moment, I didn't read it, didn't think it through. I just went into first-level-thinking "I have a a strong hand" mode, and reraised him.

If the consensus is that I should have been happy to have my stack in on the turn, I'm fine with that -- I *was* happy to have my stack in.

But given his show of interest in his hand, maybe flat calling his raise would have been better. I was still concerned about pricing out draws, but maybe I should have read the raise to mean he wasn't on a draw.

pmuir10 · #4 05-23-2005, 08:46 AM

if villain is as loose as you say, im happy to get it all in on the turn here, especially at 25NL. if he did flop the straight you still have redraws on the river. even though the pot odds might not work out there is still the huge chance that you are ahead which should be taken into account when looking at the EV of this situation.

swolfe · #5 05-23-2005, 10:00 AM

i'd raise the flop a little more...you're giving him too good a price.

i'd bet a little more on the turn. i push to minraises with sets, so i think you're fine [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

another line could be to call his minraise and check-raise the river (if you think you're ahead), or call the minraise and check-call the river (if you think you may be behind).

PinkSteel · #6 05-23-2005, 10:57 AM

Thanks for the replies. Guess I didn't screw the pooch as badly as I thought here. But I probably should have:

* Raised the flop more -- $2 would have been better than $1
* Either flat called or pushed Villain's turn raise. I just don't like my reraise; I think that's where better hands call/raise and worse hands muck.

On balance I'm still happy I got it all in; Villain could easily have hit his two pair or set on the turn, in which case I've got him.

As it was, he turned QJo for the straight and MHING.

But I think I was being too results-oriented when I posted; if I don't lose a bunch on this one I'm not playing poker. It was a pretty card-dead evening and I was afraid I pushed this one a little too hard.

Ghazban · #7 05-23-2005, 11:07 AM

At these stakes, you're not losing money playing this way as two pair and a smaller set are as likely as the flopped straight. However, you ought to recognize the danger signs of somebody flat calling when there's been a bet and a raise in front of them. That plus the turn minraise should definitely worry you. Against reasonable, straightforward opponents, this will be the flopped straight close to 100% of the time.

parttimepro · #8 05-23-2005, 11:58 AM

One player flops a set and the other flops a straight? I'm not at all surprised that all the money ends up in the middle.

He played this pretty badly, and gave you a chance to get away from it. When he calls the flop raise, you can somewhat narrow his range of hands to a flush draw, J8, 78 QJ, KX, 99.

The turn means J8 and QJ now beat you. You could possibly slow down after the min raise, which usually means either a weak test or a monster. Still, if you call and the river doesn't pair the board, I think I'd still check/call an all-in. This line at least lets you see a river cheaply and make a decision from there. Plus he may not go all-in on the river, so you could save a little.

At this level, though, I think you beat the majority of hands he bets like that. I don't think I could have folded anywhere.

3N1GM4 · #9 05-23-2005, 12:16 PM

I know it's almost certainly not relevant, but doesn't 68 also beat his set on the turn? Just checking I'm not going insane/losing the ability to count.

PinkSteel · #10 05-23-2005, 12:20 PM

Yeah, I think that's it, there's no way I get away from this hand at this level. Like you said, even if I flat call the turn, I'm going to call an all-in on the river anyway. Even against someone I respected, I might think he was pulling a move with a turn or river all-in, maybe with a monster draw.

But like you and Ghaz basically pointed out, I should have observed from Villain's line that there was a significantly higher likelihood that I could be beat, and acted accordingly. In this case, I think, that means accepting a reduced price on the hand, flat calling his turn raise, and check/calling the river.