EV of medium pp vs 2 or 3 callers

I am a newbie, 30k hands or so party 1/2 and 2/4.

I ran into a situation where i need some advice. I had 2 fishy guys, over 50% vpip with no aggression. One was on my left and the other on my right. When the 1st fish limped in, i would raise medium pp (say 77-TT) to isolate. I think this is +EV vs his random limping hands. Yes?

The problem was the other fishy guy would cold call alot, with very random hands (eg K9o). Are my medium pp no longer +EV vs two random hands? I think this may be a poker stove question but I have never used/dont have it. the rest of the table would consistently fold and leave it 3 way. Any help?

[silkyslim]

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I am a newbie, 30k hands or so party 1/2 and 2/4.

I ran into a situation where i need some advice. I had 2 fishy guys, over 50% vpip with no aggression. One was on my left and the other on my right. When the 1st fish limped in, i would raise medium pp (say 77-TT) to isolate. I think this is +EV vs his random limping hands. Yes?

The problem was the other fishy guy would cold call alot, with very random hands (eg K9o). Are my medium pp no longer +EV vs two random hands? I think this may be a poker stove question but I have never used/dont have it. the rest of the table would consistently fold and leave it 3 way. Any help?

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just google pokerstove and download it, it is ez to learn. i ran your range vs 2 random hands and you have 55% equity

Thanks [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[ohnonotthat]

As to your first question -

Raising with 77 - TT here is fine though I doubt you'll be very successful at isolating opponents at PARTY 1-2 or even 2-4 (see: the guy on your left [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]). Your reason for raising here is to punish limpy for his loose play; if doubling the price discourages others from calling that's great but consider it a bonus - not your primary objective.

As to the your stubborn port-side neighbor's [atrocious] cold-calls with hands such as K-9/off -

This is one of those situations where your opponent's bad call hurts you more than it does him.*

It's also one of those times when his bad play is actually correct play - albeit totally by accident. What makes calling a [legitimate] raise with K-9 a bad play is the possibility (likelyhood might be the better word) that the raisor has you badly dominated (with a better King or a pair of 9s, Ts, Js, or Qs) or even crucified (with K-K or A-A). If you knew he had none of these hands you would be correct to call. Naturally your opponent here had no way of knowing what you held (nor is it probable he even thought this far).

Note that if the loose limper has trash (as he often will) you and the overcaller both profit; the limper's contribution is dead (or near dead) money and as such allows for more than one player to [correctly] contest for it.

* This statement assumes that no more than the three of you see the flop; if the pot becomes multi-way K-9/off becomes toast. For that matter, once you see the chance for a heads-up or 3-way matchup go by the wayside you'd just as soon see as many callers preflop as possible. Medium pairs play best against one opponent, OK against two, OK against many but very poorly against three or four; this is a clear case of "I'd prefer you come alone but if you must bring guests bring as many as you can".

[winky51]

Totally agree with this statement.

You want 1-2 or 5+ callers. So if the table looks very likely to be 3-4 callers if you raise and 5+ if you dont then limp instead for the set. It will pay off more.

Also depends on where the uberfish sit. If for whatever reason they are on your right and folded with only one limper. Then you can raise with the 88 or 77. This is as long as tighter players are left of you. But if 1 fish is right limps, and 3 fish are behind that cold call a lot then lomp behind fish #1 to get as many in the pot as possible.

3-4 players suck when you have a nice pair.

[winky51]

Yea but position is also important. If calling station fish master is behind capbable of calling with any 2 pair, suited connector, or any ace you have no idea where you are at when the flop comes.

[dfan]

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You want 1-2 or 5+ callers.

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I would have tended to agree with this, but now I'm not so sure after running pokerstove.

If you plug in limper with top 50% of hands, you with 77, and possible callers to your right playing top 33% of hands you get (assuming 1.5 bets from the blinds, plus 2 bets for each player that sees the flop):

2 players(limper,you)=5.5 bets x .57 equity = 3.14
3 plyrs(limp,you,1 cold caller)= 7.5 x .38=2.85
4 players(limp,you,2 ccs)=9.5 x .28=2.66
5 players(limp,you,3 cc's)=11.5 x .23= 2.65
6 players(limp,you,4 cc's)=13.5 x .20= 2.70

Got almost identical results when I gave the cold callers top 50% hand range.

So this suggests that your equity is almost the same whether there are 3, 4, or 5 callers.

Ooops, I just realized the problem with this analysis is that this it is based on showdown equity. Most of the 77 hands with 4 or more players won't reach the river. So never mind. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I'll post it anyway since I went to the work of computing it. Or in case an NL player wants to know if his/her chip EV changes when going All-In vs. 3, 4, or 5 callers. It doesn't, much. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[I am fish]

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I think this may be a poker stove question but I have never used/dont have it.


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What are you waiting for?? It's free, small, and easy to use. Jeez. Poker Stove

[ohnonotthat]

You're correct. Medium pairs (77,88) do about as well against 3 random hands as against 5 if we disregard postflop action - i.e., if you are allin preflop.

I'll defer to your simulations in regard to the optimal number of opponents if all are playing top third, top half, etc. (I have never taken the time to run these sims).

If we DO factor in post-flop action my stats indicate a strong preference for a very small or very large field. Make no mistake, medium pairs play for profit against any number of opponents but they lose some value against medium sized fields (3 or 4 opponents).

Let's not overlook the fact that these hands do best against ZERO opponents; unless you're playing against imbeciles 77 will show it's greatest overall profit when it wins the blinds uncontested.