NYC poker raid?

satelliter · #1 05-28-2005, 03:09 PM

No, backgammon has an element of chance, "notwithstanding a ... skill factor". It has been held 'not gambling' by New York Courts. The question in defining "material element" is whether skill or luck "predominates". I call our moderator as my witness.

other1 · #2 05-28-2005, 03:12 PM

I'm a little confused.. so it's legal to play backgammon for money in NYS? Does that mean it's also legal to open up a backgammon hall whre people play for money?

satelliter · #3 05-28-2005, 03:16 PM

Yes

other1 · #4 05-28-2005, 04:00 PM

Interesting. So you could just throw backgammon sets on all the tables and reopen.

I'm not a backgammon player.. Is the skill to luck ratio in it higher than in poker? You roll the dice to move.. seems like quite an element of luck.

Luv2DriveTT · #5 05-28-2005, 04:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting. So you could just throw backgammon sets on all the tables and reopen.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to a reliable witness, the police knew who all the employees were. Satelliter's risk may continue should he reopen the club for business, as material witnesses may already exist. The police do not have to bust a game in progress, they just need an affidavit from witnesses and a court order.

PS: Please correct me if I am wrong.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

The Armchair · #6 05-28-2005, 04:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting. So you could just throw backgammon sets on all the tables and reopen.

[/ QUOTE ]

The police do not have to bust a game in progress, they just need an affidavit from witnesses and a court order.

[/ QUOTE ]

To do what? If it is to arrest the employees and owners, you are right -- they could just get the witness to sign an affidavit, present that to a magistrate, get a warrant, and go to the named party's houses and arrest them there. No problem.

But if it reopens as a backgammon club, and if backgammon for money is legal, for what would the people be arrested?

Luv2DriveTT · #7 05-28-2005, 04:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
To do what? If it is to arrest the employees and owners, you are right -- they could just get the witness to sign an affidavit, present that to a magistrate, get a warrant, and go to the named party's houses and arrest them there. No problem.

But if it reopens as a backgammon club, and if backgammon for money is legal, for what would the people be arrested?

[/ QUOTE ]

The owners are still liable for the club's actions, both current and previous. The players are safe (unless they are fools), but we need to be concerned about the safety of the staff, the owners, and their investment in the club as well or there will never be poker in NYC.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

cardshark · #8 05-28-2005, 04:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
According to a reliable witness, the police knew who all the employees were. Satelliter's risk may continue should he reopen the club for business, as material witnesses may already exist. The police do not have to bust a game in progress, they just need an affidavit from witnesses and a court order.

PS: Please correct me if I am wrong.

TT

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say, you are correct, TT.

satelliter · #9 05-28-2005, 05:23 PM

We will not reopen as a backgammon club, although we are soon having a tournament.

Backgammon requires more skill than poker (until recently computers were more competitive at chess than backgammon) and poker requires more skill than pinball.

Luv2DriveTT · #10 05-29-2005, 08:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
No, backgammon has an element of chance, "notwithstanding a ... skill factor". It has been held 'not gambling' by New York Courts. The question in defining "material element" is whether skill or luck "predominates". I call our moderator as my witness.

[/ QUOTE ]

A new story reguarding the owner of a North Carolina card club hit the wire on May 24th, I think it is relevent to the topic..

According to Superior Court Judge Orlando Hudson, poker is a game of chance, not skill, and his ruling Monday meant that Howard Fierman could not open his card room, The Joker Club. The Joker Club already had the space for its business, leasing a building in Durham back in November with the intent to open "a business that allows adult persons to play poker against one another and whereby (the club) will retain a portion of funds which are wagered by the players."

In an attempt to give the club the green light to open, The Joker Club sued former District Attorney, Jim Hardin Jr., after he wrote that poker wagering "does not comply with the law." He also said that if anyone was found violating the law, law enforcement officials would be sent to shut down any gambling establishments or events.

Hudson felt obligated to rule by the letter of the 19th century law, which states that it is illegal to wager on games where luck "predominates" over skill. "…how do you measure that?" the judge asked. "If the legislature told us what they had in mind, I'd understand. But they didn't tell us what it means."

Hudson did say that he has nothing against poker and does, in fact, understand that gambling is more accepted today than is has been in generations past.

"The culture is different now," he said. "Society is different. The law is ambiguous in a number of different ways."

Even poker celebrities could not help The Joker Club’s case. One such "ace in the hole" was professional poker player, Roy Cooke, who also writes for CardPlayer magazine. Cook argued that a good poker player needs more than just luck to win. One needs skills such as the ability to remain in control of one’s emotions, keen mathematical aptitude, and a knack for reading opponents.

"Unskilled players tend to lose their money," Cooke said. "Luck is a neutral factor over the course of time. The person who says he is unlucky year in and year out really doesn't play well and is in denial."

Anthony Lee, president of a Bahamas-based casino, admitted that he is not a good poker player, adding, "I can't bluff. In poker, you need certain skills which I haven't worked on."

Assistant Attorney General, David J. Adinolfi II, begged to differ.

"We're not talking about shuffleboard here," he argued. "We're not talking about archery. Poker is simply not legal. ...The turn of a card is what settles it all. The best player in the world can get beat by an amateur. Chance predominates. Chance overwhelms skill."

"The cards are dealt face down. You can be as skilled as possible. You can do all the statistical analyses. But chance predominates when you flip the card over. It's just that simple. You can't will the card to be an ace when it's a deuce."

It remains to be seen how much further The Joker Club will take its fight, but it appears as if it will have to get the law changed if it wants to open its doors.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]