must attack weakness... must attack weakness...

GrunchCan · #1 10-11-2004, 01:53 AM

This is a very common thought pattern for me, especially the "must attack" on the turn after the SB's check. My thinking is in italics. Please comment on my play & the conclusions I draw.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)

Iv'e got 8 outs to a made hand that will probably be best. If I discount my outs to 6, I have about 25% equity in the pot, which is a pretty decent edge. Therefore, I am aggressive on the flop, leading & rasiing mostly for value.

SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

With only 1 player remaining, my equity edge is gone. With the pot where it is, if SB leads, I'll put hom on Tx and fold.

SB checks,

With the SB still showing weak, I feel I have to attack to protect my hand and hopefully get a fold out of him.

Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks,

SB hasn't improved, but I have represented a made hand the whole time. I can only actually win this pot with a bluff. If we go to showdown, 9 high can't be good.

Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB
Main Pot: 8.50 BB, between Hero and SB.

parappa · #2 10-11-2004, 02:01 AM

I like the turn bet, but I'm not sure about the river bet one way or the other. While he's already announced on the turn that he's not folding, there is a club draw for him to have missed, but will he miss that draw and fold the 1 of say 7 times he needs to? I think that he probably won't but it's quite close.

(disclaimer: I'm not sure about this opinion at all.)

Rhinehold · #3 10-11-2004, 02:08 AM

I would play this exactly as you did and think through it as you did. I would probably lose it though, since that's how it has been going especially at Party's .5/1 lately. These guys call presented made hands (top pair, flushes, etc) with bottom pair! While this is normally a good thing, it takes away much of the bluffing at the pot that I think most non-fish would think twice about calling.

So, as usual, much of the situation is going to depend on your read on the other players.

ArchonsEngine · #4 10-11-2004, 04:55 AM

Warning: Newbie opinion to follow.....

FWIW, I play this exactly the same way with nearly the exact same thoughts going through my head. All your reasoning behind your play seems solid--sometimes you just can't get them to fold.

--ArchonsEngine

Jaran · #5 10-11-2004, 08:41 AM

Hey Grunch,
Pf, flop fine. I don't like your thinking on the turn as far as folding to a bet. Even if SB does have Tx and bets, unless he already has a fh, you have the odds to see the river on your OESD. I think I ck through the river here, as SB has shown that he is most likely not folding and I have 9 high.

-Jaran

TheHip41 · #6 10-11-2004, 08:46 AM

Fold preflop, watch the rest of the hand.

prayformojo · #7 10-11-2004, 11:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop, watch the rest of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This preflop limp is perfectly fine at a loose table without a lot of preflop raising. If seven to the flop and the passivity we see here was typical of this table's play, not limping 98s from UTG would be a mistake.

dgoldsmith · #8 10-11-2004, 11:49 AM

2 week beginner here:

PF - 89s in UTG - without knowing anything about the table and how people have been playing, I would have folded here.

Flop: Danger cards are:
Ax, KK, QQ, JJ, Tx - pair
AT, A7, T7 - two pair
QT, JT - pair with backdoor straight draw
KQ, KJ, QJ - gutshot straight draw, high cards
XYc - flush draw

Now the blinds before you could have anything and their checking doesn't necesarily tell you much. MP3 and CO could have one of the danger hands.

8 outs gives you 5:1. Discount to 6 gives 7:1. Maybe discount to 5 gives 8:1. Pot odds are 7:1 so bet is marginal (other than for value). If a raise came behind you, pot odds drop to 4.5-5.5 to 1

Your bet did drive out MP3 and CO so they must not have had good hands. If you had checked, they may have checked as well or CO may have tried to bluff.

Turn: 4.5:1 pot odds are marginal for 8 outs - and if you hadn't bet the flop, it could have been 3.5:1.

Do you have any stats on the SB/BB players or impressions about how the table had been playing? Would like to know that information if possible to perhaps re-evaluate my thoughts.

TheHip41 · #9 10-11-2004, 12:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This preflop limp is perfectly fine at a loose table without a lot of preflop raising. If seven to the flop and the passivity we see here was typical of this table's play, not limping 98s from UTG would be a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I respectfully disagree. I think folding UTG with 89s is never a mistake. It's always a good muck to get rid of this UTG no matter who's playing.

But on the flip side, it's not a horrible call preflop if its a loose table. THe problem then lies with the limper. You have to have the ability to play 89s out of position vs. 1000 people. I'd muck, wait for a better opportunity.

Just to add, at this kind of table, I'd play JTs and above UTG, Axs UTG, any pair. I just don't think 89s-->23s are great hands UTG. If you are MP2--->Button, easy easy call [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

GrunchCan · #10 10-11-2004, 11:29 PM

I'd muck, wait for a better opportunity.

Weak-tight. I'm trying to play marginal hands for +EV, not just hands that are so strong they play themselves.

Also, its kind of interesting that you would play any small pair, but not a medium suited connector. With the small pair, you are only drawing to a set, which flops 1-8. At least with the medium suited connectors, you have a chance to make more hands - straights, two pairs, flushes. In factg I often prefer the medium suited connectors to the small pairs. At this table, UTG I'd muck 22, but obviously I'd play 98s.