Newbie Limit O8b Questions

[ceramist]

A few Questions:

1) What is a reasonable starting bank to sit down at an apprently loose, 0.25/0.5 limit O8b table? I normally sit with 25x big bet at LHE (i.e. $12.50), but I find that I can't make that last on O8b before I start tilting over the massive suckouts and counters late in the hand. *blush*

2) I haven't learned to be comfortable playing high-only hands at the moment. Is Zee's section on High Only in SPFAP going to set me straight, or do I need to open my hand selection even more than what he lists? Any other sources on good high only starting hands?

3) Because the games are loose at this level and everyone is getting massive pot odds (it appears) to stay in the hands to the river, is there an adjustment I can make in evaluating odds to compensate (i.e. you need to be getting at least 2x pot odds)? As of this moment, I'm petrified to draw at anything and generally only feel comfortable when I have the nuts on the flop.


Sorry for long-windedness....

c

[gergery]

1) Due to the split pot nature, you need less of a bankroll to play O8 than limit holdem. 25xbb is usually more than enough.
2) Have a look at Buzz’s recent posts, where he lists win rates for a number of high-only hands. A simple rule of thumb is only play if a) all 4 cards are T or higher, AND either a1) they are double suited, OR a2) you have a pair and single suited.
3) Having the nuts on the flop is worthless. You need to be thinking “what is the likelihood I’ll have the nuts at showdown.” In loose multiway pots the best hand at showdown wins so its just a question of accurately counting how many outs you have to make the nuts at showdown (minus redraws, counterfeiting, and splitting), and figuring pot odds to continue or fold.

[JackWhite]

Here is some advice for a new player (advice I wish someone had told me when I started Omaha 8): Be prepared to fold hands after hitting a terrific flop in a loose game. Example. You have something like K-Q-6-7 in the BB. 5 limpers and the flop comes 5-8-9. You flopped the nut straight, but I'd be very willing to fold this hand. Experience has taught me this is a nightmare. You are getting half of the pot in most occasions at best, and there are so many cards that can ruin your straight, you are better off getting away from this against a large field.

Others on the board might disagree on a hand like this, but be very wary of flopping straight when there is a low draw and you don't have one.

[Rosie5]

[ QUOTE ]

1) Due to the split pot nature, you need less of a bankroll to play O8 than limit holdem. 25xbb is usually more than enough.

3) Having the nuts on the flop is worthless

[/ QUOTE ]

Woa, I strongly disagree with both statements

The game has much higher variance than limit holdem. At low stakes your bankroll will fluctuate WAY more than in limit holdem.

having the nuts is never worthless, you may not be a favorite to the field but you're ahead of any other given person (assuming your the only one with the nuts)

Your statements are contradictory, how can you say "having the nuts on the flop is worthless" and then say the game has lower variance than holdem!? the Short term bad beats are almost constant in O/8 limit, as you said-sometimes it'll seem as though you're constantly getting outdrawn when flopping the nuts but other times you're always hitting and holding up

[Rosie5]

why are you playing KQ76 if you aren't going to play after flopping the nut straight with it?

it's the nature of the game that you could be freerolling someone at any time, but you have to continue unless it's like 4 cold to you and you barely have anything in the pot. Or if you're visibly beat on other streets

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
The game has much higher variance than limit holdem. At low stakes your bankroll will fluctuate WAY more than in limit holdem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, they will?

http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/a...uy-downs05.htm

I agree with what most of what is said in here. Also, the majority of 2+2'ers will agree that variance is much higher in the Hold 'em games due to the edges you have to push, especially in Limit Hold 'em. Omaha 8/b does not have nearly the variance of Hold 'em.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
The game has much higher variance than limit holdem. At low stakes your bankroll will fluctuate WAY more than in limit holdem.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, that is factually incorrect. Split pot games can be thought of as playing twice as many hands that are half the size. This acts to increase the number of trials while reducing the standard deviation. Search the poker theory or probability forums for more details.


[ QUOTE ]
having the nuts is never worthless, you may not be a favorite to the field but you're ahead of any other given person (assuming your the only one with the nuts)

[/ QUOTE ]

Either all of your opponents are going to fold, in which case it doesn't matter what your hand was, or you are going to showdown, in which case all that matters is how strong your hand is AT SHOWDOWN.

Thinking about what made hand you have on the flop leads to fundamental errors in evaluating your hand strength. Some nut hands on the flop are terrible and should be folded. Other hands that have nothing whatsoever on the flop are fantastic and should jam. It is about your Equity in the hand, not about whether you happen to temporarily have a good hand.

while it's true that hands that are temporarily the best on the flop tend to be better at showdown, that is a backwards way of looking at it. Sort of like saying you'll recruit for a basketball team solely based on height and ignore shooting skills, dribbling skills, etc.

-=-Greg

[templar999]

[ QUOTE ]


while it's true that hands that are temporarily the best on the flop tend to be better at showdown, that is a backwards way of looking at it. Sort of like saying you'll recruit for a basketball team solely based on height and ignore shooting skills, dribbling skills, etc.



[/ QUOTE ]

dude, someone should tell that to the folks at the nba... you cant teach height!!!

[templar999]

Rosie,

a few things:

1. having the "worthless" nuts on the flop has nothing to do with variance. the two are not contradictory and in fact are not really related.

2. while i'm not as brave as greg and think that 25BB is enough of a bankroll, it is most certainly true that split pot games have less variance than HE. i'll let the mathematicians here derive a proof.

3. [ QUOTE ]
why are you playing KQ76 if you aren't going to play after flopping the nut straight with it?

it's the nature of the game that you could be freerolling someone at any time, but you have to continue unless it's like 4 cold to you and you barely have anything in the pot. Or if you're visibly beat on other streets

[/ QUOTE ]

this is really a very poor way of looking at this game and is guaranteed to deliver you "bad beats" which arent bad at all. let's use the previous example. you have KQ76 rainbow. board comes 9-8-5. let's add some suits. lets make it:
9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
let's give our opponents some hands that would have allowed you a free play in the big blind.
player 1 UTG: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Player 2 MP1: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
player 3 CO: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Player 4 SB: K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

please go through the deck. there is not one card in it that will not cost you half the pot by the turn, and give someone, if not the entire field, a redraw that will have you with less than 5% equity in the pot by the river. in fact, it'll be a miracle if you wind up with any part of the pot by the river. even if you played this hand face up, every player will be right to call you if not raise you.

while you may think this example is a little contrived, it illustrates the crucial importance of anticipating cards that not only might arrive, but WILL arrive by the river. in O/8, if a card doesnt help you, chances are it helped someone else. in situations where you have no redraws and are playing for half the pot, you're often doing yourself a favor by releasing your hand as quickly as possible. if this doesnt make sense to you, please reference TOP, p.59, reverse implied odds. playing when you're freerolling an opponent is the easy part. a monkey can ram and jam the pot with the nuts. it's realizing when you're getting freerolled and getting away from it that makes even the tightest and most unimaginative players winners in this game.

respectfully,
temp

[Rosie5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The game has much higher variance than limit holdem. At low stakes your bankroll will fluctuate WAY more than in limit holdem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, they will?

http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/a...uy-downs05.htm

I agree with what most of what is said in here. Also, the majority of 2+2'ers will agree that variance is much higher in the Hold 'em games due to the edges you have to push, especially in Limit Hold 'em. Omaha 8/b does not have nearly the variance of Hold 'em.

[/ QUOTE ]
if enough 2+2'ers say I'm wrong I just accept it.

I got nothin to say, I was wrong. It was really just an opinion but variance is mathematical so not really a shocker that I incorrect in my assumption. I was so damn sure of myself too, oh well i look like an ass. Some sessions it seemed as though nothing would go right for me.

I'll just assume my point of view on holding the nuts is also incorrect and proceed to never play this game limit again, or answer a question about it. I think it's best for all [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

It's funny, the annoyance the game brought me at the table is now haunting me in the forums by making me look stupid. this game has a curse on me