Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?

#1 08-26-2005, 08:12 AM

I'm a fan of Phil Hellmuth first of all. I've been thinking about Phil's win in the NBC Heads-up Championship. Lets remember that Phil Hellmuth has been playing since like 1990 or something. A long time. Nothing a poker player does should shock him, then yet he always seems absolutely amazed at the hands that his opponents hold. He seemed stunned when Chris Ferguson put all his money in with top two pair 92. Ok, so lets discuss that one hand where he was up against Chris Ferguson in the 3rd round. Score is 1 to 1. Both have taken a round. Phil has TT and he hits a set on a board that looks like this:

X A K T J .

4 to a straight on the board. Not sure who was first to act but Chris bets $30,000 . Phil seems to have a huge problem and ends up laying it down. Commentators are shocked and I'm shocked. Today, it popped into my mind again. This was the first hand of Round 3. Do you think Phil was setting Chris up ? Pot wasn't that big and this hand was not going to be a deciding hand in who won so Phil folds and shows it making it seem like he can be run over. So he gets run over a little bit and then catches Chris bluffing. I believe he got all his money in with A4 vs ?? . He was 60/40 and then he mounts his comeback but I don't think Phil was down by much at that point anyway. Do you think Phil was being clever or was he that unbelievably weak tight ?

drewjustdrew · #2 08-26-2005, 09:00 AM

Not viewing it, it doesn't look like that bad of a fold. Consider the Jesus hand against Friedman when he had quads and bet in a similar fashion, giving his opponent opportunities to make mistakes by calling against his powerhouse hand.

All Jesus needs is a queen to be well ahead. Hellmuth can't be sure he is ahead and will expect a bigger bet into him on the river. He is avoiding traps.

Moonsugar · #3 08-26-2005, 10:15 AM

He probably makes too many laydowns, but how can we mere mortals criticize one of the best No Limit Hold Em tourney players ever to have played?

On the broadcast of the WSOP ME FT he talked a fair amount about how he shows the big laydowns to induce the bluffs. It seems to work for him.

mackthefork · #4 08-26-2005, 10:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
He probably makes too many laydowns, but how can we mere mortals criticize one of the best No Limit Hold Em tourney players ever to have played?

On the broadcast of the WSOP ME FT he talked a fair amount about how he shows the big laydowns to induce the bluffs. It seems to work for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

The truth is he makes the laydowns because he has the weak tightness. He says he shows them so he can catch people bluffing, this is because he doesn't want people bluffing his weak tight ass.

Mack

#5 08-26-2005, 11:05 AM

drew, He WAS on the river when facing the $30,000 bet. It was the first hand and you start with about 650,000 chips so my god , this was EXTREMELY weak tight to lay down that hand to 30,000.

kleos · #6 08-26-2005, 11:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
drew, He WAS on the river when facing the $30,000 bet. It was the first hand and you start with about 650,000 chips so my god , this was EXTREMELY weak tight to lay down that hand to 30,000.

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Not calling a value bet from a very calculating player with a potential 1 card straight that beats you. Is not EXTREMELY anything. Phil plays a lot by feel, 9 WSOP bracelts would say he's pretty good at it. If he felt he was beat, why throw good money after bad? I don't see how you can call that weak.

drewjustdrew · #7 08-26-2005, 11:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
drew, He WAS on the river when facing the $30,000 bet. It was the first hand and you start with about 650,000 chips so my god , this was EXTREMELY weak tight to lay down that hand to 30,000.

[/ QUOTE ]

What were the blinds, how big was the pot? Without knowing this, I cannot buy off on your conclusion. If they were playing 100/200 with a $5000 pot, this is a substantial bet and not an auto-call. If they were 5000/10000 blinds, obvious call regardless of pot size.

spoohunter · #8 08-26-2005, 01:43 PM

Don't mind me I'm just racking up nit points, but 92 is NEVER going to make top two pair.

MyMindIsGoing · #9 08-26-2005, 01:47 PM

Don't forget that Phils is the person with most Hold'em bracelets in the world. He will prolly be that for a while still, if ever beaten.

A_Junglen · #10 08-26-2005, 01:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't forget that Phils is the person with most Hold'em bracelets in the world. He will prolly be that for a while still, if ever beaten.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but nobody cares.