A post about the first two cards

[DeuceKicker]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say a bunch of passive players (4+) limp to you in the button, and you have 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I normally raise this, knowing that I'll probably drag a big pot if I hit a set, I can get away from the hand if I miss, and that I have a good chance of seeing four board cards instead of three.

Bad play? I haven't done the math on it, but it seems right intuitively.


[/ QUOTE ]
Bad play. Why do you think you'll drag a big pot if you hit a set against passive players? Why put in two bets hoping to flop a set against players who will at best call you down? While I still wouldn't recommend it, you're more likely to drag a big pot against aggressive players if you hit a set and one of them makes a hand or draw.

Small PPs want multi-way action to make up for the fact that they're usually (with some exceptions) being played for set value only, so are going to be mucked 7/8 times, thus they want to get in cheaply.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a preflop question about small PP in late position. Let's say a bunch of passive players (4+) limp to you in the button, and you have 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I normally raise this, knowing that I'll probably drag a big pot if I hit a set, I can get away from the hand if I miss, and that I have a good chance of seeing four board cards instead of three.

Bad play? I haven't done the math on it, but it seems right intuitively.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen that play advocated before, especially in live games where it's so much more common to have the flop checked to the raiser. It's not really a 'free' turn card, nor is it even a cheap turn card because the preflop raise is the same as a flop call. You lose when someone bets into you on the flop (hence it's *EXTREMELY* important to be sure you're getting checked to on the flop).

My gut feeling is that it's probably a wash (just like raising AJo in the blinds with many players). You pad the pot, which encourages players to hang around with slightly lesser hands (and probably much more correctly), which means you're inviting yourself to be drawn out on more often (which isn't a bad thing, as they're chasing their own money). You also pad the pot for when you catch a set and hold up, but your extra preflop investment cuts against this gain when you miss.

At a meta-level, you gain a reputation as an action player if you ever show it down, meaning you get paid off better elsewhere. But that's only a small consideration.

[Greg J]

I wanted to bump this b/c I think it answers some questions that are being posed. Hope it's not too shameless.

[string4]

THANKS for bumping this...is there an archive section or something to place super-posts like this one? i've been printing the ones that are super-informative and stuff, but is there like a Hall of Fame or Archive section or could one be started so that newbies (like me) could spend a week in that forum before having to bring asked and re-asked questions here?

[Greg J]

Thanks for the kind words. I'm not sure if this is a "super post," -- I don't think it's up there with the "charging the flush draws" post or anything. Mainly it's just me getting my own thoughts straight too.

[UncleSalty]

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Thanks for the kind words. I'm not sure if this is a "super post,"

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahem. Nice modesty, but yes, it certainly is. Detruncate gets props in there too. Again, nice job guys.

[yellowjack]

Courtesy of mmbt0ne, 170~ pages of goodness:

Link for the Word Document

Link for the PDF

From this thread

[string4]

WOW this is SWEET!!!! thanks so much Yellowjack!!! Got my next couple of days' study planned heehee...

[benkath1]

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This is the thread of the week, IMHO. Nice job to all.

[/ QUOTE ]

*bump*

[Greg J]

I thought this was important enough to add to this thread.

In the process of fixing some leaks in my game, I came across a rather big one a while back. I have been meaning to post about it here, but took an extended hiatus from poker, including these boards.

I made this thread just to clarify a lot of ideas in my own playing, and get them down. In the process of that, and in analyzing others’ play, I found myself largely in agreement with the big names – Entity, shadow, Shillx, zuluking, droolie, btspider and others – which was heartening. Yet my preflop stats were 15/8. WTF?

Then I found it: the leak. It’s simple. It’s something many of you are probably doing right now and don’t realize it. Auto fold. Are you getting A8o in LP and hitting the “auto fold” box? Stop! When it’s folded to you in LP this is the kind of hand that is GREAT for open raising, as I argue on this thread.

I think yr mind plays a trick on you when you are multitabling and have a premium hand, or a tough decision, at one of yr tables. Then that J8s on the button comes up. You automuck it. When you have the QQ on yr other table, J8s looks like crap. And when you are trying to calculate whether you are getting the proper odds to on yr gutshot, you don’t wanna burn extra brain calories on J8s. The thing is, this is obviously a hand that is playable in some circumstances.

My solution is simple. Before you hit the automuck box on ANY hand, ask yrself this question: “is there any circumstance under which I would play this hand?” You would be surprised how often you will hold off folding. I mean 83o in MP, yeah that’s crap, obviously. But when you get that 96s in LP it’s okay to see how many limper there are to you. Or maybe you can isolate a really poor player who limped UTG when it’s folded to you and the blinds are uber tight with something like QTo.

I guess the moral is, before you hit the turbomuck, think. Or just stop using it altogether.

That is all. Peace out. Greg.