Normally I'd Call But I Call Down Too Much - Page 3

moot · #21 05-16-2005, 02:37 AM

It's not so much a bad fold, as it is a bad river bet to begin with.

For instance, after you were raised on the end, if someone brought me in and gave me the choice between calling the raise or folding, I would be likely to choose folding as the +EV play.

BUT, if someone brought me in on the river, before any of the action, I would have choosen check-calling as the best play.

First of all there's the psychological factor. It's just not mentally fun or healthy for me to have to lay down trips with a decent kicker for one bet on the end (after I'm raised).

Addtionally... by checking he might value bet a lower pocket pair, seeing the two aces and figuring you're less likely to have one.

But when you bet he's very unlikely to raise with anything that you beat. Plus he might be able to get away from a hand he otherwise might have value bet on the end.

toss · #22 05-16-2005, 02:42 AM

I'm convinced that bet/calling this river is the right play.

Aaron W. · #23 05-16-2005, 02:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Villain seems TAG.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 1 fold, MP1 3-bets, 6 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

Yes?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. To TAG, this looks too much like a feeble bluff attempt. An aggressive TAG might raise KK/QQ figuring his hand is still best. A smart TAG just calls with those hands because a 3-bet would absolutely suck.

btspider · #24 05-16-2005, 11:02 AM

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I would say this could be a good fold at 15/30 or 30/60 vs a very good player that you know very well. I would not fold this at a 2/4 game though.

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they may recognize the line and raise a worse hand if you have folded in the past.

deception5 · #25 05-16-2005, 11:07 AM

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It's not so much a bad fold, as it is a bad river bet to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the perfect time to bet this hand. A hand like kings or queens may have been betting into you the entire time and will check behind if you bet. Especially against a tag you need to bet the river. I would definitely call this raise though.

wireMan · #26 05-16-2005, 11:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I do not understand why you would fold when you just made trips. Why even bother going to the river if you are going to fold even when you make your hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've had this said to me a couple times now, and I would have to agree. You went this far, you got one of the two cards you were hoping to get. If you got what you wanted, why fold for 1BB?

btspider · #27 05-16-2005, 11:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do not understand why you would fold when you just made trips. Why even bother going to the river if you are going to fold even when you make your hand?

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I've had this said to me a couple times now, and I would have to agree. You went this far, you got one of the two cards you were hoping to get. If you got what you wanted, why fold for 1BB?

[/ QUOTE ]

this card didn't improve his hand. try this:

1. list every hand (here in a new post) he was behind to on the turn that he now beats thanks to this river card.

2. ok, now cross-check this list with what you think villian would 3-bet PF with

3. list the results

KaiShin · #28 05-16-2005, 11:56 AM

I'd call, but I expect to lose like all the time.

I think the fold is OK.

shadow29 · #29 05-16-2005, 12:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No. To TAG, this looks too much like a feeble bluff attempt. An aggressive TAG might raise KK/QQ figuring his hand is still best. A smart TAG just calls with those hands because a 3-bet would absolutely suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. An aggressive TAG thinks that that second A helped his hand by making it less likely that you've got the A. He might think you have TT or QQ or KK. Moreover, if he's not a 2+2er, he might not recognize the line and think that it's sheninigans (sp). etc etc

bozlax · #30 05-16-2005, 12:21 PM

[grunch]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes?

[/ QUOTE ]
No.

You're playing WA/WB, but I'm not sure that's appropriate against a TAG (especially just "seems" TAG...what's backing that up?). You've gotta find a raise in here, either on the flop or the turn. I'd probably go for it on the turn, once the flush/straight draws are pretty much dead.

[/grunch]