Straddle Discussion

[Josh W]

Often, when a few people are willing to straddle, you take the first straddler (Jimmy in this case), take his 6 chips that he's straddling with, and rubber band those chips together. This is the "rock".

He straddles. Somebody wins the pot. Whoever wins the pot gives the rock to the next UTG, so UTG can straddle without risking any of his chips.

Often when some people don't wanna but others do, this can really liven up the game, and get everybody to straddle.

Josh

[Schneids]

Hehe rocks are no longer allowed at Canterbury Card Club in MN. Nor is using different colored chips as "markers" for a rock. Something about the MN Gaming Commission saying no to it and it "making certain people who don't want to straddle feel uncomfortable." Yes, otherwise, a rock is a fine solution.

[Josh W]

1 up
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oh, sorry.

[bicyclekick]

yeah and one of the regulars bought out a sportsmart of all their bright orange hockey pucks and passed them around the table in protest. Wish I coulda been their for that.

[Kevin J]

We put a rock in when I was up there in Oct. and no one said anything. ?? It turned a bad game into a pretty good one.

I don't get it.. How can the gaming commission prevent the use of a rock? Either straddling is legal or it isn't. If it's legal, how can they stop people from straddling? That seems silly.

My two cents on your question: While it might seem totally unnatural to most good player's to commit money blind, occasionally straddling actually doesn't cost that much in terms of long run EV. I have no problem straddling every once in a while if it gets a game going. It can also do wonders for a tight image.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get it.. How can the gaming commission prevent the use of a rock? Either straddling is legal or it isn't. If it's legal, how can they stop people from straddling? That seems silly.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was the whole passing around chips to start the rock that they got pissed about I'm pretty sure.

I think canterbury is the one who's putting the axe down more because of the uncomfortability factor.

There is nothing to stop players from keeping track of it themselves, but they want no 'identifyers'.

[Kevin J]

Right. I do understand their POV. They don't want to create an uncomfortable atmosphere where players might feel pressured to straddle when they don't want to.

And rocks usually create problems in rooms anyway that won't recognize them. It's been my experience there will always be some jerk who says nothing at first, wins a big pot due the rock, and then takes it out of the game.

[gonores]

OK, lets say the game has 5 Schneiders, 3 BKs, and 1 Jimmy.

Since Schneider is straddling to keep Jimmy happy, he'll have to do all of the inherent -EV things that go along with it, namely calling all bets preflop and making a few loose calls/raises in the name of generating big pots. I think it's fair to assume that straddling costs $40-$50 per orbit for Schneider to straddle. Fortunately, he makes $20 off the 4 other Schneider straddles ($45/9 players * 4 straddles), and lets say $10 off of Jimmy's straddle, since he is more apt to do -EV activity while straddling. So lets say each Schneider is losing $15 off this proposition every orbit.

At 36 hands per hour, each Schneider is giving up 1BB of EV to keep Jimmy happy.

OK, now lets say Jimmy loses 16BBs* per hour (~$1k) to the table. That's 2BB per hour for all the BKs and Schneiders at the table, all things being equal, whereas the BKs and Schneiders would be playing a 0 EV game without Jimmy (obviously overlooking the rake to simplify things).

* In my PT DB, I have 5 players with >100 hands who lose more than 50BBs per 100 hands (and they are all a) pretty close to -50BB/100 and b) under 200 total hands, skewing the sample toward the extremities). That is the rate at which Jimmy must lose at to hit 16BB/hr live. If anything, the estimate of 16BB/100 is a little extreme.

Following the math, if Schneider sacrifices 1BB of EV per orbit, he needs to ensure that table-straddle tactics double the amount of Jimmy time in the game to make it a +EV decision.

I find it hard to believe Jimmy stays twice as long just as long as people straddle. Meanwhile, Schneider could just as easily use his boyish charm to engage Jimmy in interesting conversation to keep him there. Or engage in prop bets with him. Or something. Straddling is fun, but I don't think you can call that a +EV long term decision.

Oh yeah, and each BK makes almost 4 times as much as each Schneider in this scenario.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, lets say the game has 5 Schneiders, 3 BKs, and 1 Jimmy.

Since Schneider is straddling to keep Jimmy happy, he'll have to do all of the inherent -EV things that go along with it, namely calling all bets preflop and making a few loose calls/raises in the name of generating big pots. I think it's fair to assume that straddling costs $40-$50 per orbit for Schneider to straddle. Fortunately, he makes $20 off the 4 other Schneider straddles ($45/9 players * 4 straddles), and lets say $10 off of Jimmy's straddle, since he is more apt to do -EV activity while straddling. So lets say each Schneider is losing $15 off this proposition every orbit.

At 36 hands per hour, each Schneider is giving up 1BB of EV to keep Jimmy happy.

OK, now lets say Jimmy loses 16BBs* per hour (~$1k) to the table. That's 2BB per hour for all the BKs and Schneiders at the table, all things being equal, whereas the BKs and Schneiders would be playing a 0 EV game without Jimmy (obviously overlooking the rake to simplify things).

* In my PT DB, I have 5 players with >100 hands who lose more than 50BBs per 100 hands (and they are all a) pretty close to -50BB/100 and b) under 200 total hands, skewing the sample toward the extremities). That is the rate at which Jimmy must lose at to hit 16BB/hr live. If anything, the estimate of 16BB/100 is a little extreme.

Following the math, if Schneider sacrifices 1BB of EV per orbit, he needs to ensure that table-straddle tactics double the amount of Jimmy time in the game to make it a +EV decision.

I find it hard to believe Jimmy stays twice as long just as long as people straddle. Meanwhile, Schneider could just as easily use his boyish charm to engage Jimmy in interesting conversation to keep him there. Or engage in prop bets with him. Or something. Straddling is fun, but I don't think you can call that a +EV long term decision.

Oh yeah, and each BK makes almost 4 times as much as each Schneider in this scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG, if you were there you would be the first to scream NIT!!!! at the top of your lungs in the direction of all the "BKs"

[gonores]

[ QUOTE ]
OMG, if you were there you would be the first to scream NIT!!!! at the top of your lungs in the direction of all the "BKs"

[/ QUOTE ]

You're damn right. I'd have to yell and needle enough to make him give up the $150/hr or so that he'd be giving up to come join me and my straddling crew. It's a good thing I'm Doug [censored] Meyer and I know how to make BK straddle if I need to make him straddle.