Trainwreck

Schneids · #1 11-19-2005, 12:48 PM

I'll call it 4 handed 250/500.

Button is def a losing player (ie in a 5 handed game many months ago he was 52/35 PF and not great postflop) though I speculate he's a lot better than he used to be.

Boutros is a top-notch player. IMHO perhaps the best 4-6 handed player online (I can think of mb 2-3 others who I'd say are in the same league). He plays pretty tight and is very tough postflop.

Button opens, I call in SB with Qd9d. Boutros calls in the BB.

So far in this game I have 3 bet the button twice from the SB, missed on both flops in which he's raised my continuation bet both times, and I've check/folded the turn because the board has sucked for my hand. I have also defended my BB against button once and folded to his flop bet. So in his eyes, I have the image of being run-overable, so I'm toning it down PF. Also, one of the reasons to 3-bet -- getting Boutros out PF -- isn't quite as important because he is tight and most of the hands that he'll fold for three bets he'll fold for two bets anyway. However, maybe I should still be 3 betting this time though given my image I felt calling was best. OK, no more PF.

Flop: Qc 6c 3s.

Check, check, button bets, I raise, Boutros 3 bets, button folds.

What's a good plan the rest of the way? Also FWIW I really think he expects I have a hand like 76.

krishanleong · #2 11-19-2005, 12:52 PM

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What's a good plan the rest of the way? Also FWIW I really think he expects I have a hand like 76.

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I like the preflop call simply because Boutros will get out of the way with most hands without you needing a 3-bet.

I think I'd check raise the turn and expect him to call down with a PP.

Is he capable of 3-betting the turn with a worse hand? If you've been folding a lot on BB streets I think image will protect you from 3-bets by worse hands.

I thought briefly about checkraising the river. I guess if he is on a bluff of some sort that might be better than checkraising the turn. I think he'll bet the river with most hands he call a turn check raise down with. Waiting till the river has the disadvantage of scare cards interfering with your play. I think a turn cr is the way to go.

Krishan

flawless_victory · #3 11-19-2005, 12:58 PM

i would fourbet and bet all the way until he raised again... then i usually start calling (unless i caught a 9, of course)
edit- against described button, i almost always call Q9s in the sb in 4handed.

Spicymoose · #4 11-19-2005, 12:58 PM

Your rational for preflop seems ok. I think one reason for 3-betting though is to have less of a chance of being in a pot with this good player.

As for your plan... You say he thinks you could have 76, but he must also expect that sometimes you do have a Q. The call preflop disguises the fact that you have a Q as often, because most people would 3-bet with Q9s+. Nevertheless, he might be raising with A6s (only 3 combos), but he could also have something like QT (8 combos), or QJ (another 8 combos). He also would probably play like this with 77-TT (or does he 3-bet 99 and TT preflop?), which would be maybe 21 combos, but discounted for the possible 3-bet preflop, so only about 15 combos? He might also have 66 for 3 combos. All in all, you are about as often ahead as behind.

Check raising the turn doesn't have too much value, and you risk getting 3-bet when you are behind. Furthermore, he might give up on his hands that he would of otherwise bet on the river.

I guess a case could be made for betting the river to prevent free showdowns, but does he really check behind on the river after betting the turn often at all? Betting the river puts us in that tough spot of having to call a raise, and most often losing money when he has us beat.

Schneids · #5 11-19-2005, 12:58 PM

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So far in this game I have 3 bet the button twice from the SB

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Whoops I forgot to mention this is in like 10 hands at the table, so, having 3-bet him twice already is pretty substantial.

Spicymoose · #6 11-19-2005, 01:00 PM

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I think I'd check raise the turn and expect him to call down with a PP.

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He has a PP just about as often as he has a higher Q.

Spicymoose · #7 11-19-2005, 01:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So far in this game I have 3 bet the button twice from the SB

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoops I forgot to mention this is in like 10 hands at the table, so, having 3-bet him twice already is pretty substantial.

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't this mean that it might be good to 3-bet once more for image purposes? 3-betting him twice is pretty substantial, but doing it three times is quite a bit more substantial. Just incase anyone had missed, or forgotten that you are being so agressive. Or are you trying to tone down your image?

The Truth · #8 11-19-2005, 01:09 PM

I agree with 3 betting preflop. Just adjust a bit postflop.

I cap and lead on the flop here. Maximize value, give him no options for free cards.

Spicymoose · #9 11-19-2005, 01:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with 3 betting preflop. Just adjust a bit postflop.

I cap and lead on the flop here. Maximize value, give him no options for free cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot that he could have a flush draw, and be trying to go for a free card. This doesn't happen all that happen, but I think it puts us over the line of being ahead of him more often. Capping and leading would be good then. Calling and leading may also be correct, as it would make him less hesitant to lay down his PP.

DcifrThs · #10 11-19-2005, 01:14 PM

good post mikey.

first, when you say you dont need to 3bet pf to get buotros out you state that "i dont need to worry about him b/c he'll fold the same hands for 2 bets as he would for 3..." but he's getting 5:1 now, closing the action.

he's not playing fewer hands now..he's playing MORE! many more if he knows you think he's that good and he knows he's that good then he'll be looking for more spots to tango, not turn in his dance card when at 5:1 its lookin pretty full.

on the flop i dont mind a cap and a turn bet. but given how it really looks like you have 7xs or something i think you can consider calling and c'ring the turn. he may 3 bet for a SD and u may have to call this down but given how you've been playing that move looks both strong AND odd.

it looks strong simply b/c you haven't done it before. and he knows you know you haven't done it yet this session in this situation. so he may call down light. or he may raise light, so you may have to call down.

or you can try the call and donk bet call down, which is popular for showdown reasons and not spewage reasons, but sometimes in this spot a little spewage is a good thing.

Barron