How can randomness possibly exist?

[chezlaw]

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Who said free will is random? I make my own decisions, but I always have a reason for them.

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If our future is predetermined (which I believe it is), there is no free will. If nothing is random, then our future has already been determined.

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how could randomness change anything about free will?

chez

[ZeeJustin]

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Who said free will is random? I make my own decisions, but I always have a reason for them.

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If our future is predetermined (which I believe it is), there is no free will. If nothing is random, then our future has already been determined.

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how could randomness change anything about free will?

chez

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If randomness exists, then our future has not been predetermined.

Again, free will was NOT the point of my OP.

[chezlaw]

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Who said free will is random? I make my own decisions, but I always have a reason for them.

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If our future is predetermined (which I believe it is), there is no free will. If nothing is random, then our future has already been determined.

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how could randomness change anything about free will?

chez

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If randomness exists, then our future has not been predetermined.

Again, free will was NOT the point of my OP.

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Sorry if I'm in the wrong thread but the lack of predetermination doesn't help with free-will. If stuff happens at random then its not am atter of will at all.

Back OT, the existence of randomness is a metaphysical question, we have no way of telling if things happen at random or not.

chez

[lastchance]

You really need to read up on Quantum Theory.

[ZeeJustin]

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Sorry if I'm in the wrong thread but the lack of predetermination doesn't help with free-will. If stuff happens at random then its not am atter of will at all.


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I am saying that free will cannot exist if our futures have aleady been determined. I never implied that the converse is true.

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Back OT, the existence of randomness is a metaphysical question, we have no way of telling if things happen at random or not.

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Do you have any evidence to support this claim? It seems to me that this is purely an issue of scientific advancements. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by metaphysical, but it sounds like you are trying to turn this into a philisophical question when it is purely a scientific questin.

[ZeeJustin]

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You really need to read up on Quantum Theory.

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Any recommendations? I recently bought A Brief History of Time , but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. Will that help?

"Randomness" only comes in during the measurement process. In quantum mechanics, states evolve deterministically. The point, though, is that the measurement process only appears random if you make the measurement. If we put Sklansky in a box and tell him to measure some quantum mechanical system, the rest of us outside the box will describe the combined system "Sklansky+system" evolving in a completely deterministic way -- it is only Skalansky that sees a random "wave function collapse."

If the universe as a whole can be described by a pure quantum mechanical state, there is a very real sense in which there is no randomness, since there is no "external observer." However, we as humans, described ourselves by quantum mechanical subsystems of the universe, will always see randomness when performing measurements on other subsystems.

[ZeeJustin]

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"Randomness" only comes in during the measurement process. In quantum mechanics, states evolve deterministically. The point, though, is that the measurement process only appears random if you make the measurement. If we put Skalansky in a box and tell him to measure some quantum mechanical system, the rest of us outside the box will describe the combined system "Skalansky+system" evolving in a completely deterministic way -- it is only Skalansky that sees a random "wave function collapse."

If the universe as a whole can be described by a pure quantum mechanical state, there is a very real sense in which there is no randomness, since there is no "external observer." However, we as humans, described ourselves by quantum mechanical subsystems of the universe, will always see randomness when performing measurements on other subsystems.

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You seem to equate a lack of knowledge with randomness. I understand what that dude's Uncertainty Principle is (although I forget his name), but I don't see how it relates to the question at hand, other than the fact that it will hinder progress towards the answer to my question.

[chezlaw]

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Sorry if I'm in the wrong thread but the lack of predetermination doesn't help with free-will. If stuff happens at random then its not am atter of will at all.


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I am saying that free will cannot exist if our futures have aleady been determined. I never implied that the converse is true.

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Back OT, the existence of randomness is a metaphysical question, we have no way of telling if things happen at random or not.

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Do you have any evidence to support this claim? It seems to me that this is purely an issue of scientific advancements. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by metaphysical, but it sounds like you are trying to turn this into a philisophical question when it is purely a scientific questin.

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No, there's no scientific experiment that could prove that things happen by random.

Suppose an experiment that provides evidence of randomness. Now suppose that the universe is a simulation running on a deterministic computer that uses a randomising algorithm. There is no way to distinguish the two.

chez

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You seem to equate a lack of knowledge with randomness. I understand what that dude's Uncertainty Principle is (although I forget his name), but I don't see how it relates to the question at hand, other than the fact that it will hinder progress towards the answer to my question.

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Well, I thought you might want to know how quantum mechanics actually treats randomness (since that is the subject everyone will bring up as soon as you bring up this topic), but if it's just going to "hinder your progress" -- fine, I'll shut up.