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#1
11-05-2005, 04:26 PM
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How can randomness possibly exist?
When I think of the universe, I think of the laws of science, and randomness doesn't seem possible to me. Some people may use the double slit experiment to prove randomness exists, but that is simply something we cannot determine, and is not necessarily something that cannot be determined with more knowledge.
I think of the universe the same way I think of a computer program. The universe has a set of laws (or algorithms) that determine how the matter that the universe is made up of moves about. Just like an algorithm, someone can look at the "script" of the universe and predict what will happen next. However, it is impossible for computers to do anything random. Sure, they can look at a super accurate clock, or use a huge set of predetermined numbers, but that is simply using outside sources to create the illusion of randomness. It doesn't make sense to me that the universe has any tool to possibly create randomness. If you fully understand all the laws of the universe, and can map every particle that exists in the universe, then you must also be able to predict what will happen to each one of those particles. I can't think of how this could not be true. This is why I do not believe in free will. 
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#2
11-05-2005, 05:08 PM
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Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't make sense to me that the universe has any tool to possibly create randomness. If you fully understand all the laws of the universe, and can map every particle that exists in the universe, then you must also be able to predict what will happen to each one of those particles. I can't think of how this could not be true. This is why I do not believe in free will. [/ QUOTE ] This is the second post in a row I've read this morning where the argument is made along the lines of "it doesn't make sense to me ... therefore.." It's gotta be me misreading these things ( I hope). At present the evidence is that at a quatum level there IS randomness, so to base an argument on "I can't think how .." seems to leap ahead of the evidence. Now, with the M-string brane theories perhaps some hidden variables will show up ( there's been some strong cases made that they can't show up ) but at this stage I have to stay agnostic about randomness or not - evidence so far is it's random at the quantum level, my mini-einsteinian brain says ..huh?! If I've misinterpreted your claim, I apologize ZJ, Daniel Dennett has an interesting book "Freedom Evolves" that discusses human freewill in a universe with determination in it. Worth a read. luckyme, if I thought I was wrong, I'd change my mind
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#3
11-05-2005, 05:11 PM
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Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
[ QUOTE ]
This is why I do not believe in free will. [/ QUOTE ] A bit off topic - It's hard to make a case for free will in a universe with randomness, also, perhaps moreso. luckyme
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#4
11-05-2005, 05:17 PM
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Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
[ QUOTE ]
This is the second post in a row I've read this morning where the argument is made along the lines of "it doesn't make sense to me ... therefore.." It's gotta be me misreading these things ( I hope). [/ QUOTE ] In this post I am stating what I believe with my limited knowledge, and am not making any conclusions. I think it is likely that a reply to my post will change my opinion drastically. I am seeking knowledge in this thread.
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#6
11-05-2005, 05:51 PM
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Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
[ QUOTE ]
and am not making any conclusions. [/ QUOTE ] Ok, sorry, so you haven't decided to believe we don't have free will. good. we can talk :-) I don't relate well to the concept of 'believe in', more along the lines of "at this point my knowledge of the evidence seems to point to XYZ". With free will, as interesting at it is to discuss, if we found out we didn't have it we'd not do anything different. hmmmm. We seem to have no choice but to act as if we have it, however it works at whatever level of quantum or otherwise. One, of many, ways to approach it is from the question .. why would this experience of having free will exist if it was serving no purpose for us? To use the horrid computer analogy, we have some pretty impressive computer programs solving complex problems, we've never felt the need to program them with a 'feeling' of free will. Is there some level of complex self-referential intelligence that an illusion of free will emerges and it doesn't have to be programmed in? Free will suffers from the ill-formed question problem, I don't know ( outside of Dennett's work) any clear statement of what free will is in any specifically useful way, and until that happens it seems premature to try and definitively answer 'does It exist?'. It may well exist if we define it in some meaningful way. Randomness doesn't seem to help, but..? luckyme, .... I had this extra ink..
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#9
11-05-2005, 06:31 PM
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Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] and am not making any conclusions. [/ QUOTE ] Ok, sorry, so you haven't decided to believe we don't have free will. good. we can talk :-) I don't relate well to the concept of 'believe in', more along the lines of "at this point my knowledge of the evidence seems to point to XYZ". With free will, as interesting at it is to discuss, if we found out we didn't have it we'd not do anything different. hmmmm. We seem to have no choice but to act as if we have it, however it works at whatever level of quantum or otherwise. One, of many, ways to approach it is from the question .. why would this experience of having free will exist if it was serving no purpose for us? To use the horrid computer analogy, we have some pretty impressive computer programs solving complex problems, we've never felt the need to program them with a 'feeling' of free will. Is there some level of complex self-referential intelligence that an illusion of free will emerges and it doesn't have to be programmed in? Free will suffers from the ill-formed question problem, I don't know ( outside of Dennett's work) any clear statement of what free will is in any specifically useful way, and until that happens it seems premature to try and definitively answer 'does It exist?'. It may well exist if we define it in some meaningful way. Randomness doesn't seem to help, but..? luckyme, .... I had this extra ink.. [/ QUOTE ] Sorry, but this thread was not meant to be about free will. I should have left that line out of my OP.
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#10
11-05-2005, 06:33 PM
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Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
[ QUOTE ]
Who said free will is random? I make my own decisions, but I always have a reason for them. [/ QUOTE ] If our future is predetermined (which I believe it is), there is no free will. If nothing is random, then our future has already been determined.
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