How did I do on this one?

[steamboatin]

I couldn't get the hand converter to work.

#Game No : 2956452580
***** Hand History for Game 2956452580 *****
$0.50/$1 Omaha Hi/Lo - Sunday, October 30, 20:56:14 EDT 2005
Table Table 64944 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: Pray4Love ( $24.01 )
Seat 2: zimzag ( $22.38 )
Seat 3: Shellseeker ( $14.48 )
Seat 4: ridgecat ( $38 )
Seat 6: steamboatin ( $15.50 )
Seat 10: Tychobrahe ( $23.25 )
Seat 8: adog004 ( $23.50 )
Seat 7: waumbly ( $11.50 )
Seat 5: Chipper75 ( $20.87 )
Tychobrahe posts small blind [$0.25].
Pray4Love posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to steamboatin [ 3d Js Ad 4s ]
zimzag folds.
Shellseeker calls [$0.50].
ridgecat folds.
Chipper75 calls [$0.50].
steamboatin calls [$0.50].
waumbly folds.
adog004 calls [$0.50].
Tychobrahe calls [$0.25].
Pray4Love checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qh, 2s, 5s ]
Tychobrahe checks.
Pray4Love checks.
Shellseeker checks.
Chipper75 bets [$0.50].
steamboatin calls [$0.50].
adog004 calls [$0.50].
Tychobrahe calls [$0.50].
Pray4Love folds.
Shellseeker folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ts ]
Tychobrahe checks.
Chipper75 bets [$1].
steamboatin raises [$2].
adog004 folds.
Tychobrahe folds.
Chipper75 calls [$1].
** Dealing River ** [ 5h ]
Chipper75 bets [$1].
steamboatin calls [$1].
Chipper75 shows [ 9s, Qd, Qs, 7s ] a full house, Queens full of fives.
steamboatin doesn't show [ 3d, Js, Ad, 4s ] a flush, jack high.
Chipper75 wins $10.50 from the main pot with a full house, Queens full of fives.
There was no qualifying low hand.

How did I do, I lost but that is not important. I would like your thoughts on the play.

[Cooker]

I probably call the flop, but I can make a good case for raising since you have a very hard to conterfit nut low draw and decent straight draw (and other A3s will come along for the ride most times at this level). I don't know if this is a hand value thing, but the J-high flush draw isn't worth crap. Your spades are blockers against someone else's draw and you are drawing at a nut low with a good straight draw for high. You can also pray that the flush will get you 3/4s sometimes when you make a low on the turn.

I am not thrilled by the raise on the turn, because I think it is less likely that you can win high when the flush card hits, and you would like to keep in other bad low draws in case you get quartered. I don't see any upside to the turn raise since if your hand is good no hand that might outdraw you will fold (maybe 2 pair, but at this level they probably call even with that) and you get more money in the pot if the people after you call (for the rare times your J-high flush actually is good). On the end I could fold, but I might make a crying call. I think the fill up is pretty obvious given the action. I would prefer not to know the outcome when I analyze a hand, since I worry it tainted my advice.

I think you made 2 typical "holdem player" type mistakes. First, you overalued a weak 2-card flush. The nut and second nut flushes are pretty strong hands (even the second nut can't stand too much action) anything less and it should be greatly discounted unless it was a runner runner luck out when you were drawing at low or something (even then non nut flushes aren't that strong). Second, I don't understand the turn raise. I think you want money in the pot here, so you want callers after you. Driving people out isn't terribly likely to increase your winning chances much, but having extra dead money from weaker low draws probably helps some.

[steamboatin]

I thought I needed to narrow the field so I raised the turn. I am a holdem player so I make a lot of holdem player mistakes. that is why I really appreciate the feedback from the forum.

[sy_or_bust]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought I needed to narrow the field so I raised the turn. I am a holdem player so I make a lot of holdem player mistakes. that is why I really appreciate the feedback from the forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your logic doesn't make sense. Your raise will never fold a better hand and allows weaker one-way hands to get out cheaply when they might've called a single bet and found a reason to pay off again.

A reason to raise here might be that the players behind you will coldcall a raw A4 draw, any set or flush, some 2-pair/3-pair hands, etc. This won't be true very often given this specific board. By calling, you make it a lot easier for bad players to make bad calls drawing ~dead. Raising is a lot stronger when you need to protect, (i.e. a set on a 2-flush/straight board), or if you can legitimately expect to good draws and 'promote' your hand into a scoop or split on more river cards, (i.e. a strong high hand and mediocre low draw, or more typically a decent high + nut low against a probable nut low).

In general, micro-limit O/8 is about exploiting the players who don't understand the value of their hands. This leads to a lot of faux-passive play, because semi-bluffing generally induces correct folds and 'correct' calls.

[Buzz]

steamboatin - Tough break. You have a nice starting hand and a nice fit with the flop, and then end up with a loser.

I agree with Cooker and Sy that you should not raise the turn. I actually like a raise immediately after the flop better than a raise after the turn. You shouldn't actually like the turn much and you're simply not likely to knock out a better hand with your raise.

There are a lot of little things that are wrong here. Any of them, taken alone, does not amount to much, but taken together, tip the scales in the direction of not raising on the turn.

• You're in a sort of an awkward position.
• Since low is not already on the board, people who know how to play the game realize if the board pairs, low will not be possible and thus with two pairs, if they make a winning full house, it will be for the whole pot.
• Your flush is not a favorite to win and thus is not worth protecting. (Your turn raise is unlikely to knock out a higher flush and won't knock out any nut low draws either).
• You don't have the low yet. Low may not be enabled by the river card.
• Even if low is enabled, you may end up getting quartered or sixthed.

Put that all together, and it spells "don't raise."

It's true that a turn raise could work out well for you if you knock out an opponent who would otherwise take away part of your pot. In that respect, if your flush was worth protecting, or if you already had low secured, I think a turn raise would be a better play.

It's also true that the flush could work out for you, but it won't more often than it will. I think that's generally true in a full game whenever you make less than the 2nd nut flush on the turn after two flush cards on the flop. Here you make the 4th nut flush on the turn. You do have lots of outs for low, roughly half the cards in the deck, but they're not scoop outs and there's really no way to promote them to scoop outs.

At any rate, I can see some merit in raising the turn, but you just don't have quite enough to raise... almost, but not quite.

Of course you call on the river.

Just my opinion.

Congratulations on holding your own in the live $10/20 game at Caesar's (mentioned in another recent post).

Buzz

Pump the flop and the turn as hard as you can and get the money in there. You have a great hand and you should be punishing anyone who wants to come along.

Someone said the flush draw is useless, that's complete nonsense. Probably over half the time, your flush will be good when it hits (I'll do the math if anyone calls me on that number). If you're just drawing to a high your flush draw is worthless, but in this case it adds a decent amount of equity to a great low + straight draw. You've got to get hyper aggro with these hands, they're the ones you make money on more than the flopped nuts.

As for the river, it sucks, you just gotta hope for a cheap showdown. If it's too expensive, fold and be happy you did it.

Disregard what I said. For some reason I read $.5/$1 PL. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Probably over half the time, your flush will be good when it hits (I'll do the math if anyone calls me on that number).

[/ QUOTE ]

Phil - I’d like to see how you do the math. Looks like a very tough problem to me.

As calculated, the hand, after this flop, figures to make a spade flush 360/990, or 3636/10000. That’s easy. But how often, when five opponents see this flop, will the jack high flush end up a winner? That’s hard.

As simulated, A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], with five opponents holding random cards and with a flop of
2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] makes a flush 3658/10000, winning 1684/10000 and losing 1974/10000.

Note that the board figures to pair or make two pair or three of a kind after this flop, and considering Hero’s hand, (9*8/2+9*36+6*6+4*3)/990 = 444/990 = almost 45% of the time. And some of those pairs will result in opponents making full houses.

As simulated, Hero’s five opponents with random cards made winning flushes after this flop a total of 1609 times. Thus Hero’s jack high flush actually won more often than it lost to other flushes.

If we make the board
2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], as it actually was after the turn, then Hero wins with a flush 4790/10000 and loses with a flush 5210/10000. As simulated, Hero’s five opponents with random cards make a winning flush 740+714+713+713+709 = 3589. (Hero’s five opponents with random cards make full houses or quads the other 1621/10000 times).

So you’re correct if you’re thinking Hero’s jack high flush doesn’t lose to higher flushes as much as it wins. However, I think you may not have taken into account the possibility of the board pairing (thus enabling a full house or quads).

I’ve been to Cairns. Nice place. I remember that part of Australia for the friendly people, the fantastic SCUBA diving off the Great Barrier Reef - and a bird that sang at night and sounded like a human who had gone raving mad might sound. As I recall the bird cackled madly all through the night. Hoo hoo hoo hoo ha ha ha ha hoo hoo hoo hoo ha ha ha ha hoo hoo hoo ha ha ha ha. On and on. Again and again. Neat bird!

Anyhow, I don't think the 4th-nut flush will be good over half the time when it hits after five opponents have seen this flop.

Consider yourself called.

Buzz

I would raise this pre flop, you have a quality hand so you want to get more money in the pot. A raise may also get you the button position throughout the hand.

I would raise again on the flop.

Bet/ raise turn.

Think hard about folding the river. Player/ situation dependent.

[DiceyPlay]

Hi SteamBoatin,

Yeah, in Omaha you're not worried about flush cards higher that your made flush. Since they have to play two cards, they either already have it or they don't and it's not coming. Your raise will not get draws to a hand better then a flush to fold - like the other poster said, maybe 2 pair, but not likely at .5/1.

If you held the nut flush, obviously (I think) you want to raise (that should be charging the draws just like in hold'em). I suppose if there's lots of opponents, you could make an argument to just call and keep the field large, especially if there's a low draw out there. My thinking is the nut low draw isn't going to fold, so you may as well encourage all the lows to continue thereby building your half the pot.

This could be completely wrong - anyone, please chime in if it needs to be corrected.