Limit SNGs - Page 3

The Yugoslavian · #21 04-08-2005, 08:26 PM

Yes, if you've played 20-30 LHE STTs and can't spot enough poor play to take advantage of, then you should quit poker.

The thing is, you have spotted plenty of bad play and you *know* this. Hell, you can probably even tell without seeing the hands that go to showdown that too many are busting early in these things. But if you *do* look at the way hands are being played, then yes, you should be able to tell if they're beatable. I'm assuming you've played relatively low buyin limit STTs - watching 20-30 higher buyin ones may or may not allow you to come to a conclusion.

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Any situation in a zero-sum game (ignoring rake, [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] )against players who you can out think and make 'better' decisions than will be +EV. I find it *very* hard to believe you are truly questioning your ability to make better decisions in these low buyin limit HE STTs...

1.7 as a SD is close to what it will be. I didn't say it was exactly this number. A range would be most appropriate in discussing this point I'd imagine. There are a few threads that deal with this in mathematical and non-mathematical ways...I'll find a couple and PM them to you.

I don't pretend to know advanced LHE STT strategy....the reason I think a higher ITM is possible mainly is due to the realtive ability of the players playing the games, not the difference between it being limit or no limit...given fields of completely equal strength (for the game) a very simliar ITM % makes sense to me intuitively...

But, while the limit and NL players are coming from the same Party Poker population, there are fewer experienced limit STT players (as there is less $/hr to be made there - so sharks don't bother) and the games are longer, giving worse players even more time to make mistakes.

Yugoslav

GrekeHaus · #22 04-08-2005, 09:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, if you've played 20-30 LHE STTs and can't spot enough poor play to take advantage of, then you should quit poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the record, all but 2 of these were played last summer or before (only 1 was played at the time of my original post). As you're aware, I've made a rather substantial breakthrough with my play since then. I was having these questions back then and thought it would be interesting to address the issue here.

[ QUOTE ]
Any situation in a zero-sum game (ignoring rake, [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] )against players who you can out think and make 'better' decisions than will be +EV. I find it *very* hard to believe you are truly questioning your ability to make better decisions in these low buyin limit HE STTs...

[/ QUOTE ]

I never questioned this ability. I only questioned whether or not this difference was enough to beat the rake. Hands like this just make me feel like I have way more than enough edge:

Party Poker Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind t200 (6 handed) converter

BB (t1245)
UTG (t390)
MP (t2255)
CO (t380)
Button (t2330)
Hero (t1400)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, Button calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls.

Flop: (5 SB, t1000) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB, t1400) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (5.50 BB, t2200) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: 5.5 BB (t2200)

Results:
Button has Kd Qh (straight, ace high).
Hero has Ac Kc (two pair, aces and jacks).
Outcome: Button wins 5.50 BB (t2200).

Yes, it is hands like this (nothing like calling off 2/3 of your stack on a gutshot) as well as this thread that have convinced me that I have more than enough edge to get a solid return from these games. Though I would still be curious to investigate the issues of ROI and ITM moe thouroughly and compare them to the NL SNGs.

The Yugoslavian · #23 04-08-2005, 09:34 PM

Yeah...Aleo's your boy for comparing the ITM and stuff thoroughly...but he's MIA. I don't think anyone has put too much discussion effort into limit STTs on this forum (that's not true though...but meh).

Yeah, your hand is a great example of how your opposition doesn't even need to hit his hand on the flop to pay you off...

If you're going to be playing STTs mainly as a diversion while grading, then yes, I think it's a great idea to play some limit ones and get back to us on your ideas/strategies.

Then you, Phil, and Skipbidder (I believe?), could have a go at it while the NL players yawn and fall asleep, [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

Yugoslav

The Yugoslavian · #24 04-09-2005, 01:44 AM

I accidentally played one of these stupid things tonight (2nd time that's ever happened to me in over 2000 STTs).

So yeah, they're sure as hell beatable!!

I really played the ITM poorly though, go figure.....bah, [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

The one thing that stuck out most to me was this:

IT TAKES FREAKIN' FOREVER TO PLAY THESE DAMN THINGS!!!!

I almost impaled myself on a rusty, fiery, scum covered, diseased spear sitting in my hallway....it was *that* painful!!!!

Yugoslav

tjh · #25 04-09-2005, 02:23 AM

You guys are thinking about this way to hard, or at least from the wrong point of view.

Think like a fish for a moment.

Where do you feel safest?
Playing Limit games.

Where do you feel unsafe ?
Surrounded by sharks.

Where are the sharks ?
NL STT, NL ring games, Limit ring games (larger stakes not so much micro or small)

So the fish in the open sea have been harrased by sharks until they go broke or learn how to play.

Perhaps limit SNG's are the equivalent of a sheltered place where the fish have become placid and weak. A place with no predators.

The way to win a game is to get the most of their chips. I imagine that more chips go into the pot in Limit they just go in smaller increments. Since your whole stack is not at risk the "let's see a flop" mentality probably is very common.

Plus as one other poster said, there is always someone who thinks it was NL and just bets to get out of there.

So they take forever ! Move up in buyin amount to compensate and see if it pays off.

The Yugoslavian · #26 04-09-2005, 02:29 AM

I'm pretty sure fish think a bit more like:

'Dude, did you see Phil Ivey pwn that tourny last week on WPT marathon day?

Oh hells yeah homie....that was friggin' aaaweeeesome! I gotta get me to some of that NL ish...but I have no money holmes [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

Oh snaps bro doggy dog.....just hop ons over to the Party STTs....sit yourself down in one of those $11 games where allin is the name of the game.

Awwwwwwwwwwww shhhhhhh.....yo...u be right foo!'

But you're right....limit players go to the limit STTs and suck it up too. I don't think many fish really know where the sharks are.....that's one reason the sharks eat so well.

But yeah, most of us are in agreement that the limit STTs are pretty soft.

Yugoslav

microbet · #27 04-09-2005, 03:13 AM

You are very careful selecting games. I've only played about 500 SNGs and I've accidentally played omaha a couple times, and pot-limit or limit 3 or 4 times each.

The Yugoslavian · #28 04-09-2005, 03:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You are very careful selecting games. I've only played about 500 SNGs and I've accidentally played omaha a couple times, and pot-limit or limit 3 or 4 times each.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to think of it as my finest STT skill.....

After all, the first step to STT mastery is to master entering them...

Yugoslav
Who has never entered an omaha or pot limit game...
And also had a perfect record entering NL STTs during his brief 8-tabling the $11s stint...

GrekeHaus · #29 04-09-2005, 04:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are very careful selecting games. I've only played about 500 SNGs and I've accidentally played omaha a couple times, and pot-limit or limit 3 or 4 times each.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to think of it as my finest STT skill.....

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL...well at least you got that going for you.

I was grading 2 problems today, and can you believe it took me 2 full Limit SNGs and I still hadn't finished half my class (granted I finished OTM in both)? They really do take forever, but not as long as grading math problems done by computer scientists!