I NEED HELP WITH A POSITION PLAY SITUTATION

[ofcrtville]

Ok, first things first, i am new to poker, new to the forum and an fairly sure that this is the proper place to post this question (i know some of you can be brutal about questions in the wrong area so i am braced for the worst... LOL). My question is that after reading sevearl sources for playing starting hands in postions i have came across Power Poker Starting Hands from www.midasholdem.com. I have received no response from them so i propose it to the forum. They along with a few other sources talk about only playing certin hands if there are more than 4 people in the pot. For instance holding 8 8 in Late position w/ a raise in front they say only call if there are 4 or more players in the pot, same is true with 6 4 and 5 3 in late postion with no raise. What is the Theory behind that. How does it benefit to have more people in the pot. with such weak hands. seems to me that fewer people would be better. Any helpful comments are appreciated. All others well be determined as they come in.
Thanks

[Cpt Spaulding]

You may have misread the article..Smaller pairs are stronger with fewer players...You may fold P8's if there are up against a raise and 4 or more called in front of you...If there are 4 or less...8's are a pretty good hand...Learning all this comes with time there are far too many variables to give you any good solid answers. Like what type of players called ahead of you...[censored] like that...

[ofcrtville]

i have the article right here and is says call if there are 4 or more players already in the pot. I have heard this said with suited connectors too. I have always thought w/ pocket pairs you wanted to lower your # of opponents.
ty for the response

[umdpoker]

smaller pocket pairs are better with more people, simply because they are really only useful for their set value. the more people that see the flop, the better you get paid when you hit.

[bconway6]

UMDPoker is right about the small pocket pairs. Even heads up they’re still only slightly favored 56 to 44 up against over cards, depending on the flush and straight potential of the over cards. Against three players the small pair may or may not be a favorite at all depending on the flush or straight possibilities of the other two over-card hands. The reason you’re playing that hand is to make a set and take down as large a pot as you can. Most of the time even with many players in a set will be good enough to take a monster pot.
The same is true of the small suited connectors. You’re playing those to flop either a flush or straight or draw to one. Again the hope is when you make your hand to take the biggest pot you can. That’s why those are said to be multiway hands because those are going to have the larger pots.

[Dov]

You need more people in the pot to make this call profitable.

Here's why.

You will flop a set to pocket pair about 1 in 8 times. This means that you will fold the flop about 7 of 8 times when you call and miss your set. This means that you will lose 1 small bet 7 of 8 times when you try to catch your set. You need to make up for this loss.

Since you will only flop a set 1 in 8 times, the pot needs to be offering you odds of 7-1 to call profitably. However, the betting will not end on the flop. Therefore, anytime you get approximately 5-1 from the pot preflop, you can call profitably.

This is because you are expecting to make up the difference later in the hand. This is called implied odds.

If you routinely play the small pairs without implied odds, you will lose more than you make when you finally do flop a set. That's why you need 4 callers or more in a raised pot.

Hope this helped.

Dov

[ofcrtville]

it has all came to light now, it is more about making your hand profitable and playing with the potential strenght than playing the hand on its strength. So no more raises from me trying to lower my number of opponents and lot more folds after the flop. Thanks a million

[BasketballNYC]

One other point. With hands that can hit a big draw position is very important. With 4-4, after the flop you have either hit or missed. Position does not matter as much. If you hit, you can bet out, or trap depending on a number of other things. If you miss, you check/fold.

But this is different with a draw. If I have 6-5s and the flop comes with a 4 and a 7 I am in a tough spot from early position. Do I bet? What if I get raised? If I bet and get called and miss the turn am I going to bet again? A lot of tough questions. However in late position I get to get a lot fancier. If he checks, I can take a free card here, or bet to try and win the pot. I can check and take the free card or bet/raise to try and get a free turn card.

Just something I have burnt alot of money learning. Don't play those big drawing cards up front.

Matt F.

[Cpt Spaulding]

Interesting....When I have lower pocket pairs and there are 5 or more people at the table that gives more outs for poeple to hit if overcards are on the flop...Really it boils down to reading the other players and the gut feeling...Sort of a game time decision....

[Dov]

BTW, everyone who posted in this thread should get Winning Small Stakes Holdem, also known here as SSH by Sklansky, Malmuth, and Miller.

It covers these concepts and more in depth.

Good Luck

Dov