Quick Question

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Everyone:

In the $80-$160 game at The Bellagio an interesting situation frequently occurs.

It's a time game where every 30 minutes $8 per person is collected from the pot. Since the game is full at nine handed, as much as $72 will be collected. However, the money is only taken from the pot if there is a flop.

In other words, if someone raises and no one calls, that person gets both the small and big blinds and the time is not taken. Instead, the next pot becomes the time pot, but again there must be a flop for the time to come out.

Now what frequently happens is that if you're the first in raiser in a time pot, your chances of winning the blinds go up because people are less likely to call since they are aware that the pot is approximately 2 small bets smaller. However, even though you are more likely to win this pot before the flop with a raise, it is much smaller if someone does play against you.

So the question is: Should you be more inclined to raise first in in a time pot or less inclined?

I have my opinion on this, and will get back a little later with it.

Best wishes,
mason

[Huh]

If the game is this tough (there are enough player's thinking about the implication of a time pot rake that it's not always taken the first or second time), then I think I am getting up and switching tables.

Anyhow, if I had a gun to my head and was forced into the situation, I think it would be a direct function of the chance you have of stealing the blinds and the hand you hold and the type of hands that would play back at you.

It sounds like you are talking about a situation where only a prem. hand is going to play with you for a pot that has an enormous(for a heads up hand) tax. If you can guarantee that only AA,KK,QQ,AK,AQ,KQ will play with you you will steal the blinds two times, and be forced to play one. Stealing the blinds has a profit $240, while it will cost you $160 + a possible $80 if you are re-raised, if someone has one of these hands. Therefore making it profitable to raise any hand, and folding to anyone who plays back at you unless you have a great holding. I know this is an ideal situation, but I think it represents what I mean when I say it's a function of your ability to steal the blinds and the hands that will play back at you.


-Huh

[Garland]

Interesting post since I've never played in a time game before, which is typical of higher limit games. I suppose since people are less inclined to call because the pot will be smaller, I'd be more inclined to raise, and raise even on lesser valued hands. But like all things, it depends on the situation. If people are aware of what I'm trying to do and react accordingly (via revealed hand on time pot games), I'll be *less* inclined to raise.

I'd be interested to hear your take on this.

Garland

[MMMMMM]

Hi Mason,

First off, two things seem intuitively obvious: that one must tighten up a lot in early position in a time pot, and that raising from the cutoff or button should have a better chance of stealing the blinds (assuming the blinds are decent players--if they are very loose players or are newbies, trying to steal would probably be terrible;-)).

The more difficult aspect of the question seems to be whether one should open-limp or open-raise when in early or middle position (if one is going to play). Of course, I can't think of too many hands I would like to play from early position in a time pot;-)

By raising a premium hand early, you make it more likely that you will win uncontested, but if you do get played with, you may find yourself wishing that you had instead called in order to encourage others to enter the time pot (odds). If the table is loose I would not be as inclined to raise early position.

All in all, my feeling is to tend to tighten up overall, and to raise less early position. Since you will be tightening up overall, and since raising from steal position against decent players should have a better than usual chance of success, perhaps those two factors approximately cancel each other out--meaning it might be right to play about the same as normally from the cutoff and button if you are against decent players. However in this case I would still alter my stealing frequency in accordance with how I perceived the blinds' proclivity to defend.

By the way, I usually prefer to pay my own time (except at a very loose table) in order to avoid having to deal with just such considerations, and because I don't like to feel that I should be folding far more often than usual, thereby depriving me of some chances to outplay certain players. I am interested in your take on the whole thing, and whether you generally prefer time pots or to pay your own time.

One advantage I see in paying one's own time is that many other players will be altering their play due to the time pot and it may be possible to take advantage of this. For instance, if you pay your own time while everyone else does a time pot, you may be able to steal more liberally but without the accompanying penalty.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Huh:

[ QUOTE ]
If the game is this tough (there are enough player's thinking about the implication of a time pot rake that it's not always taken the first or second time), then I think I am getting up and switching tables.


[/ QUOTE ]

You can't. All games at these limits are must move. By the way, I think that must move games are very bad for cardrooms except for a short period of time after a game has first started. But that's an issue for another thread.

Best wishes,
Mason

[slavic]

You can't. All games at these limits are must move. By the way, I think that must move games are very bad for cardrooms except for a short period of time after a game has first started. But that's an issue for another thread.

I agree. Why not start that thread?

[cero_z]

Hi Mason,
I think this is really dependent on how tightly people play when choosing whether to defend. What hands will the typical player now throw away in the BB that he would've played on with if it wasn't a time pot?
Also, does the cardroom enforce this time pot, or do the players? In Atlantic City, the players must unanimously agree to play time pots, as opposed to just paying 8 bucks per down, or whatever. But, they usually break it down into three raked pots. For example, in the 20-40 full game, the time collection will be $70/ half hour (7 bucks a player). The players may choose how the house gets that 70. The typical arrangement is that the first 3 pots which are over 200 bucks are taxed to the tune of $24, $23, and $23. Then, the good players play ultra-tight for a few hands (usually 3), and the loose players pay the time, and nobody seems to mind. But, the house has nothing to do with this; one player must even volunteer to pay the $70 up front for the table, and the "rake" from the time pots is then paid to him. This method does point to a pretty obvious tactical adjustment (play tighter for a short time), which could be better or worse than your situation, depending on how savvy your opponents are.

[cero_z]

...I'd intuitively say be less inclined, as there should usually be some poor players in the game who are calling more liberally than you'd expect anyway. So, the risk of going to a flop is now greater, and a whole small bet is not made up for by the fact that you may isolate a weak player.

[James282]

You should raise if you have a playable hand, because of the increased chances of picking up the blinds and because you are relatively unlikely to get a playable hand in the following hand where time will be collected if you win this hand uncontested. This way, you increase your chances of winning the blinds while very likely not having to sacrifice anything on the next hand. Granted, this depends on table texture, your position, etc, but if you are likely to steal the blinds you might as well. You will unlikely regain the equity you lose by giving up your chance to steal the blinds by open-limping and allowing others into the pot.
-James

[largos]

You should never be inclined to raise a pot first in if you don`t have a big hand , especially if you know that if there is action some of the pot will be taken from you.