Weird Party $109 hand: TT UTG+1 - Page 2

#11 10-27-2005, 11:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
UTG (t3090)
Hero (t4290)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls t150, Hero raises to t300, 8 folds, UTG calls t150.

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What's with this minraise nonsense? Are you hoping he re-pops you so you can lay down? Do you think he's folding? I don't get this play. Ever. And I'm seeing a lot of it lately.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t825) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

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You DO have position here, and I might be tempted to bet this out.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (t825) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets t150, Hero raises to t300, UTG calls t150.

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What's the point of THIS min-raise? First of all, if he ever has a J, he's re-raising you, thus crushing your ability to make a hand. And with the pot at T1275, you think he's going to fold for T150 more?

[ QUOTE ]
River: (t1425) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

UTG checks, Hero bets t150, UTG raises to t800

Pot: t2375
UTG has t1690 left
Hero has t3540 left

Hero ?

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, why the hell are you betting only T150 into what is now a T1425 pot? At least do something like 1/2 pot, something that actually helps you if he calls.

Secondly, he has happily let you off the hook by check-raising you. He either has a naked queen, a queen boat, or a flush.

At this point, you just have to re-pop him for all his stack. You have him covered, so worst case scenario you keep playing at T75-T150 blinds with T1,850 left.

Could you smooth call? Maybe, but it is so pathetically weak-tight that I would rather hang myself than do this. And if he has you beat, you deserve to lose your chips because you played like a donkey - you put yourself in a situation where you got 0 information about the player because of the minbets.

schwza · #12 10-27-2005, 11:38 AM

there's a mantra on this board that minraising is always bad, but i'm more in the camp that it's something that bad players often do, and i never do, but it might be useful from time to time. i know i have a hard time dealing with it.

i would just call the turn. you really don't want to get reraised there with a strong draw.

bet more on the river. you're going to get a crying call from 2 pair or an A, and you want that crying call to be bigger. also, a J or flush will usually c/r there, and you want it to be for more.

folding the river here would be horrible. i could go either way on pushing or calling. i think pushing is a little better. you're going to get paid off by Jx a lot of times here, and KQ/AQ/TQ/KcJc are really the only likely hands you're losing to.

Ben5505 · #13 10-27-2005, 01:13 PM

Check behind after river card.

schwza · #14 10-27-2005, 01:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Check behind after river card.

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you're missing out on way too much value. all kinds of trips / two pair hands will pay off a smallish bet, and flushes / J's are trying to c/r.

burningyen · #15 10-28-2005, 03:16 AM

OK, thanks for the replies, guys. You're probably going to destroy me for this. Why the minraise on the turn and the minbet on the river? Again, I don't think I've ever made those moves before, and I won't really try to defend them. Instead, here's my attempt to reconstruct my muddled spur-of-the-moment reasoning and where I think I went wrong:

On the turn:

Here's my thinking on why a minraise: How many hands do I beat that flat call the minraise? A whole lot. How many hands that beat me (and that jive with the previous action) flat call the minraise? None, they have to reraise, I think. If I'm ahead, how many draws out there hurt me? Only a 2-pair draw to a boat, I thought. I completely missed that UTG could be on a club draw. Anyway, to continue with my thought process at the time, how many hands do I beat that reraise? None, I think. Do I jeopardize my chances of filling up? Yes. But assuming I just called on the turn, how much would I have to call on the river if it comes a blank? At the time I was more worried about shielding myself from the reverse implied odds than preserving my chances of filling up to what 2/3rds of the time wouldn't even be the winning boat (assuming he had AK, AQ, or KQ). If I raised bigger on the turn, I would truly hate a reraise all-in. It just seemed to me in the heat of the moment that once again a minraise accomplished just about everything I wanted a raise to accomplish. I see now that that wasn't the case, but I think it's close.

On the river:

When UTG flat called the turn minraise I was fairly certain he didn't have the straight. And how often will a typical opponent check AQ or KQ here? Almost never, I thought. I felt like I had to value bet small enough that AK could call. I definitely should have bet more than t150. t600 sounds right.

But having minbet, what about this check-raise?? Sadly, I folded. My read after the turn was that UTG could only have AK, AQ, or KQ. I had forgotten about/discounted the possible flush draw. Could he have been raising for value with a made flush given my weak betting? Maybe, but for some reason it just didn't seem likely a typical opponent in a $109 MTT would limp something like 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] UTG. Instead, my mind was fixed on the idea that either UTG was getting way out of line with AK (highly unlikely) or being clever with a bigger boat (much more likely). But given that I completely forgot about the flush possibility, I now think I should have called the check-raise. I still think it's close, though.

As an aside, I ended up 35th out of 448 despite this fiasco.

burningyen · #16 10-28-2005, 03:28 AM

Oh yeah, and the weak-tight Gigabet in me thought that given my stack size relative to the rest of the table it would be better to fold incorrectly than to call incorrectly.

PartySNGer · #17 10-28-2005, 06:44 AM

LOL, this may be the most poorly played hand in the history of poker.

Let me get this straight. You bet 150 on the river, which essentially means nothing considering the pot was so large, then proceeded to lay down your boat after a small raise.

WHY THE F%#@ DID YOU MAKE A MEANINGLESS BET, REOPEN THE ACTION, AND THEN FOLD???????????
JUST CHECK BEHIND IF YOU'RE GOING TO FOLD TO A RAISE.

The more I look at this hand the more I think this guy may have had a very weak holding. I just can't see anyone checking a hand that has you beat on the river. 90% of players would be too scared you'd just check behind and would value bet out here. Plus, when you bet 150 on the river the guy prob thought (and rightly so) you were an ultra-donk who just made the worst post oak bluff in poker history. Congrats you got destroyed this hand by A9 or some crap hand.

betgo · #18 10-28-2005, 08:26 AM

The only thing weird about this hand is how you played it.

Do you have a positive ROI at this buyin level?

PFrese · #19 10-28-2005, 10:59 AM

I hate to jump on the pile yen, but that was a very poorly played hand on everystreet and a really, really bad laydown. Unfathomable how you can lay it down for 650 more into a pot that large. Crazy. If you are routinely making these types of laydowns, you have a HUGE leak.

As for all of the mini-raises, bad as well. The only time I mini raise is as a trap, with a monster, into agressive players. If the bet, I repop it, or push. But it will always be for a big bet. At least the size of the pot (ok, maybe 3/4 IF I WANT A CALL).

But the way you played this hand...eesh. Take the beating...learn...and never pu$$yraise again. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

#20 10-28-2005, 11:14 AM

While I follow your logic about the minraise, the problem is that the raise is so small relative to pot size that nearly anything could (and should) call there. Heck, even rather trashish limping hands aren't out of line calling your minraise preflop.

As for folding on the river, why were you minbetting into a giant pot anyway? Your bet is so small that a re-raise doesn't give you ANY information, as even a complete garbage hand probably re-raises there. A small bet (1/2 pot? 1/3 pot?!?!?!) would achieve a lot more than minbetting there.

What I think you did at the time was feel that raising meant you were showing strength, and that his continuation at the pot after your show of strength meant that he had strength, when in fact your raising was a giant show of weakness.