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  #1  
Old 12-12-2005, 09:16 PM
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Default Omaha degenerate (live 20/40 limit)

Playing in a live 20/40 with a half kill yesterday (30/60) and wanted to post a couple of hands that are giving me nightmares.


I'm MP with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

One horrible limper limps in EP, I raise, and a solid CO calls.

Flop Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

horrible limper bets, I raise, CO cold calls, limper calls

Turn 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Limper bets, I raise, CO cold calls again, Limper three bets, I call, CO calls

River 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Limper bets, I call, CO calls


The raise on the flop is an attempt to get some straight draw backdoor low to fold.

On the turn, I figured sometimes the limper isn't betting the nuts, so what the hell maybe I can get the CO to fold some sort of low draw.

BTW, that was a "kill" hand

Thoughts???


Second hand

I'm the button with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Two limpers, I raise, both blinds call as do the limpers.

Flop

J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

checks to me and I bet, BB calls, as does one solid MP who limped

Turn

8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]


BB checks, MP bets, I raise, BB cold calls (I mutter something about getting quartered under my breath) and MP looks flabergasted that the rock in the BB cold called 80. He folds.


River

7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]


BB checks, I think he has A 2 xx, so I bet, and he calls.


Thoughts?


The turn raise was aimed at getting another low to fold, and as it turned out it got the solid MP to fold a Q-high flush because the rock in the BB cold called. Either way, I figured most players dont cold call 2 BB's in a small pot with just the low figuring they're usually quartered.



Comments appreciated.



Tex
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  #2  
Old 12-12-2005, 10:32 PM
benwood benwood is offline
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Default Re: Omaha degenerate (live 20/40 limit)

First hand:Good raises on first three streets.On the river,you're probably beat both ways unless they both have a straight & no decent low(unlikely).I would not fold here,either,even though it may be right.Maybe it would be a good idea to raise the river in case CO started with A24 or A25,& you can get him to lay it down.
2nd hand:I only would have called the turn,figuring MP had the flush & hoping to get a call from A5 in the BB.But your raise may have worked out well.Good river bet.
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  #3  
Old 12-13-2005, 10:44 AM
blumpkin22 blumpkin22 is offline
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Default Re: Omaha degenerate (live 20/40 limit)

Hand 1 looks good. I like the flop and turn raises. I think you have to cry call the river there.

Hand 2 I check the river behind. I'm not sure you are quartering him enough to bet there. But it might be close.
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  #4  
Old 12-13-2005, 06:48 PM
beset7 beset7 is offline
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Default Re: Omaha degenerate (live 20/40 limit)

I like the turn raise in hand #2 but that's not necessarily a good sign. I have a tendency to overplay 6th with the nut low trying to get better high hands to fold. It doesn't work often enough to be +ev in the games I play in but maybe in this game versus these players it's a good move.

As for the first hand I don't how you can play any street differently.
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  #5  
Old 12-14-2005, 11:10 AM
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Default Results, and why is the mod editing my posts?????

[ QUOTE ]
Playing in a live 20/40 with a half kill yesterday (30/60) and wanted to post a couple of hands that are giving me nightmares.


I'm MP with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

One horrible limper limps in EP, I raise, and a solid CO calls.

Flop Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

horrible limper bets, I raise, CO cold calls, limper calls

Turn 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Limper bets, I raise, CO cold calls again, Limper three bets, I call, CO calls

River 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Limper bets, I call, CO calls


The raise on the flop is an attempt to get some straight draw backdoor low to fold.

On the turn, I figured sometimes the limper isn't betting the nuts, so what the hell maybe I can get the CO to fold some sort of low draw.

BTW, that was a "kill" hand

Thoughts???


Second hand

I'm the button with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Two limpers, I raise, both blinds call as do the limpers.

Flop

J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

checks to me and I bet, BB calls, as does one solid MP who limped

Turn

8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]


BB checks, MP bets, I raise, BB cold calls (I mutter something about getting quartered under my breath) and MP looks flabergasted that the rock in the BB cold called 80. He folds.


River

7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]


BB checks, I think he has A 2 xx, so I bet, and he calls.


Thoughts?


The turn raise was aimed at getting another low to fold, and as it turned out it got the solid MP to fold a Q-high flush because the rock in the BB cold called. Either way, I figured most players dont cold call 2 BB's in a small pot with just the low figuring they're usually quartered.



Comments appreciated.



Tex

[/ QUOTE ]




The first hand limper showed the nuts and the CO showed a better low than mine.


In the secind hand, I got quartered on the river when the "rock" cold called with a pair and the nut low on the turn and the river made him two pair to quarter me.

This hand was very interesting IMO, because a rock checks the nut low when the flush gets there on the turn, another very solid played bets a Q high flush and I raise trying to run out another low. The rock thinks I've got the nuts for me to raise the solid player who bet into me, so he cold calls with the nut low. When he cold calls on the turn the solid player with the Q high flush figures he might be drawing dead, because he figured me for a low hand, and he figured the rock figured me for a low hand, too, which means that it this were true a Q high flush was no good.



Tex
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  #6  
Old 12-15-2005, 09:24 PM
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Default Re: Omaha degenerate (live 20/40 limit)

Hand 1: Only thing I see wrong is that you didn't cap it on the turn. I wouldn't put anyone on a 5/8 or 8/10, and you still have the monster draw going to the river to scoop.

Hand 2: Although it seemed to work in reverse, I don't see the play by raising the turn as proper. No other naked A2 will fold, even to 2 bets. Most players look at their cards, see the best low and call down. Also, you have to know the flush is out, or at least hands that dominate yours for high. I just feel it's a risky move unless you know the players well.
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  #7  
Old 12-16-2005, 06:47 PM
Buzz Buzz is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2002
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Default first hand

Tex - first hand

You have 17 outs after the turn, but 4 of your outs are for half the pot.
If the river card had been favorable and you had won, then when there was no low, CO would fold and
• 13/44 (win 22 small bets)
• 4/44 (win 6 sb)
• 27/44 (lose 12 sb if EP has the straight)

The way you played, if EP has the straight,
13/44*22 sb + 4/44*6 sb - 27/44*12 sb =
6.5 sb + 0.55 sb - 9.37 sb = -2.32 small bets

Let’s try it without the raise on the turn.
• 13/44 (win 14 sb)
• 4/44 (win 4 sb)
• 27/44 (lose 8 sb)
Without the raise on the turn, if EP has the straight,
13/44*14 sb + 4/44*4 sb - 27/44*8 sb
4.14 sb + 0.36 sb - 5.80 sb = -1.30 small bets

Let’s try it with a fold on the turn when the straight becomes possible.
• 44/44 (lose 4 sb)
-44/44*4 sb = -4.00 small bets.
Folding is clearly your worst option, even if EP has made a straight on the turn.

If EP actually makes a straight on the turn, whatever you do is a loser. But since you lose the least amount by calling on the third betting round, your best option is to just call. But that’s assuming EP has made a straight on the turn. What if EP doesn't have a straight?

By betting the turn, I think EP is <font color="white">_</font>representing the nut straight, but EP isn’t <font color="white">_</font>guaranteed to have the nut straight.

But does EP actually <font color="white">_</font>have the nut straight, or even the non-nut straight after the turn? Hard to say.

Let’s think of betting a lower high hand than yours (non-nut flush draw, lower set, two pair, or one pair) as betting foolishly.

When EP bets after the turn, EP either (1) has a straight, (2) is betting foolishly, or (3) is bluffing.

You’re stuck either calling or raising the turn, since if EP <font color="white">_</font>does have the straight, folding is your worst option (see above).

Will EP have the straight (as represented) more often than not? (Or if EP doesn’t already have a straight will EP make one on the river if you don’t improve?)

I think you have to continue after the turn because folding is your worst option if EP actually does have a straight. In addition, there is the chance that EP is bluffing or betting foolishly.

If EP is bluffing, then if you raise, does EP merely fold, perhaps putting you on the turned straight? If so, you gain nothing by raising, and actually lose a pick-off call on the river (and you’re going to be stuck calling on the river with your set of queens because of the size of the pot, just in case EP is bluffing or betting foolishly).

I think you only gain by raising if EP is betting foolishly. And if EP is betting foolishly, you should eventually prevail anyhow.

As things turn out, since EP actually has a straight and since you do not improve on the river, you’re destined to lose here - but you can’t know that on either the turn or the river.

Therefore, all of the above things considered, I think your best move on the third betting round is to simply call.

When you have top set on the turn but a straight is possible and an opponent bets, seemingly representing the straight, a call is probably your best play.

Just my opinion.

Buzz
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  #8  
Old 12-16-2005, 07:09 PM
Buzz Buzz is offline
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Default Hand #2

Tex - I think you played this hand very well. I have no suggestions.

However, perhaps Rock should not have played as passively as he did on the river. (You did get a break by not getting check-raised - but I still think you played the hand well since you should more often get 3/4 than 1/4 yourself given this scenario from your perspective).

Just my opinion.

Buzz
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