If There Is No God

[Cooker]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that I have no right to take away the liberty or life of another unless they severely threaten my own life or liberty. I choose to live by this belief. It is not based on utility, but is partly based on that 'disgust' you mention. However, the choice itself, and the will behind it, do not come from disgust or pleasure.

Explain it to me via your model please.

Aside - your chemical pleasure model does not adequately explain the existence of a strong will, or choices based on will.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your "belief" appears to be the disgust that comes from evolution in David's theory. If you have the disgust and no ability to overcome it, then you have no will. Just because you call it a choice doesn't make it so. If you are mentaly incapable of doing something, how can that be a choice? Have you ever felt neutral on the point of killing people to benefit yourself? (I suspect you will say no) Then you never really even considered the possibilities, so how can you say you made a choice? You have likely never made a choice that killing people was wrong. You have likely always believed that (or were indoctrinated at such a young age that you don't remember when the belief was forced upon you). I contend you are incapable of overcoming the disgust and have no choice at all in the matter. I am the same way, but I try to be honest with myself about it. I think free will probably doesn't exist. At the end of the day, you are doing something because you just feel like it is the best thing and this is not a choice.

[Piers]

[ QUOTE ]
but I dispute the assertion that God is necessary for absolute morality.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely.

They tend to just get linked because people who believe in absolute morality typically believe in God as well.

[purnell]

It seems to me that empathy or pity or whatever works both ways. If I can feel pain because of another's suffering, I can also feel pleasure because of another's joy.

[Jeff V]

[ QUOTE ]
Just like chimpanzees would if they were bred to become smarter and were surgically given voiceboxes.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the best statements on this board since I've been here.

See what happens when you mix a Stargate SG-1 marathon with mesculin? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me that empathy or pity or whatever works both ways. If I can feel pain because of another's suffering, I can also feel pleasure because of another's joy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Its the idea that caring about others is purely a negative thing that is wrong i.e. that we are moral because we are disusted (or hurt) by their suffering.

As I undersatnd it DS is saying that we take what we want unless we calculate it will harm us or it causes us disgust. He is suggestig that 'morality' is the calculation or the disgust that inhibits us from just doing whatever we want.

But it misses the main point which is that the well-being/happyness of those we care about (not all people equally) is itself something we want.

chez

[Lestat]

<font color="red"> The more you care about the people the greater lengths you will go to.
</font>

We may be talking about the same thing, but I'm not sure.

I'm thinking more of strangers. While I don't wish bad upon them, I can't say that I'm much concerned with whether or not they're happy. However, I would have very strong emotions if I knew a stranger were suffering. This I believe, is pity or emphathy for their situation.

It's only when you get to people I love or care about that I'm concerned with their happiness. But this is a bit self-serving..

As I stated to DS, I believe all motivation stems from the basic need to gain pleasure or avoid pain. I take pleasure in seeing my children, girlfriend, and those I love be in a state of happiness.

Anyway, I realize this makes me seem kinda cold. But I'm just trying to be very candid and self-evaluating.

[ QUOTE ]
if you or NotReady would care to refer me to a particular "conclusive" or "summary" post which encapsulated the argument as to why absolute morality must hinge upon God, that would be welcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

After reading dozens of NotReady's posts, I think his carefully crafted argument can be summarized as such:

"I believe morality comes from God."

You didn't miss much.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red"> The more you care about the people the greater lengths you will go to.
</font>

We may be talking about the same thing, but I'm not sure.

I'm thinking more of strangers. While I don't wish bad upon them, I can't say that I'm much concerned with whether or not they're happy. However, I would have very strong emotions if I knew a stranger were suffering. This I believe, is pity or emphathy for their situation.

It's only when you get to people I love or care about that I'm concerned with their happiness. But this is a bit self-serving..

As I stated to DS, I believe all motivation stems from the basic need to gain pleasure or avoid pain. I take pleasure in seeing my children, girlfriend, and those I love be in a state of happiness.

Anyway, I realize this makes me seem kinda cold. But I'm just trying to be very candid and self-evaluating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like the same thing. If evolved, it makes sense that morality is 'designed' for families/smallish communities. It makes sense that the more remote the person, the weaker the moral feeling.

I dont see why it should sound cold. Nothing cold about caring most for those closest to us. As long as we don't expect others not to also care most for those closest to them.

chez

[Peter666]

I don't understand why Atheists don't kill themselves when they are sick. There were times when I was sick or injured and the pain was so bad that I wanted to die immediately, just to end it. Emotions took over all Reason, and it would have been a reasonable response if there is no God and my existence turns into nothingness.

But of course, as my existence began from nothingness without my consent, it would be unnatural to think there is not a higher power ruling over things.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why Atheists don't kill themselves when they are sick. There were times when I was sick or injured and the pain was so bad that I wanted to die immediately, just to end it. Emotions took over all Reason, and it would have been a reasonable response if there is no God and my existence turns into nothingness.

But of course, as my existence began from nothingness without my consent, it would be unnatural to think there is not a higher power ruling over things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Atheists and theists alike do kill themselves in times of suffering. Just curious, but do you think all suicides are done by atheists?

Also, your second point doesn't really say much of anything at all. Just because you do not know from whence you came, it doesn't mean you are correct in making the leap of logic to a "higher power" ruling over things. Lightning was once thought to come from a higher power. Do you still believe that?