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View Poll Results: QJs
Fold 26 78.79%
Raise 1 3.03%
Call 6 18.18%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

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  #11  
Old 12-25-2005, 03:58 PM
Nick Royale Nick Royale is offline
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Default Re: RESULTS

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BB likely would've stayed in to the river anyways even if you bet out. Just because he won the pot, doesn't mean you played it wrong.

b

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Agreed. I love the way this flop was played, BB was making a mistake by calling both on the flop and the turn.

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He didn't make a mistake calling the turn.

b

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You're correct. Still all streets were played well.
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  #12  
Old 12-25-2005, 04:16 PM
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Default Re: RESULTS

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BB likely would've stayed in to the river anyways even if you bet out. Just because he won the pot, doesn't mean you played it wrong.

b

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Agreed. I love the way this flop was played, BB was making a mistake by calling both on the flop and the turn.

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He didn't make a mistake calling the turn.

b

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Oops, I didnt see that the BB paired the turn. Still a well played hand by the hero IMO.
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  #13  
Old 12-25-2005, 05:47 PM
onegymrat onegymrat is offline
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Default Re: AK flop decision - 20/40

Thanks Nick, Westley & Bernie. Sometimes I need reassurance that although I lost the hand, I did the "best" play available at the time. Bernie made a good point about BB calling the flop regardless of the bets. I feel both plays (bet or check-raise) are fine, dependent on the situation. In my case, I was fairly confident the TP would bet, and he did, making the trap successful. The session, on the other hand, was not.
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  #14  
Old 12-25-2005, 06:08 PM
KramerTM KramerTM is offline
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Default Re: AK flop decision - 20/40

This is an easy bet in my opinion. We are never positive here that TP is holding an Ace, and therefore it is way too dangerous to check here in hopes that he bets.
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  #15  
Old 12-25-2005, 06:10 PM
KramerTM KramerTM is offline
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Default Re: AK flop decision - 20/40

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In this spot I like betting the flop becuz if opens up a chance that I can trap the tight player on the turn for more money.

For example: Lets say I bet the flop and the tight player just calls, and the BB calls or folds. Since I would put the tight player on an ace, I would check the turn knowing the tight player will bet and then I will raise.

Also If I bet the flop and the tight player raised and the BB folded, I would just call and checkraise the turn. When out of position, 3 betting the flop and leading the turn is my usual line, but on this drawless of a board I prefer trapping the villain on the bigger streets.

If I bet the flop and the tight player raised, and the BB called, I would 3 bet right away since I have two donating customers, and there's no guarantee the BB will commit more money on the turn, so I'd rather charge him 3 bets now.

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This post sums it up perfectly, if you ask me.
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  #16  
Old 12-26-2005, 02:16 AM
private joker private joker is offline
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Default Re: AK flop decision - 20/40

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With this read this flop is an easy check/raise, I can't imagine how so many players want to bet out.

When I read a post I assume the reads provided are correct, so while check/raising in this situation is wrong in general, it's obviously correct if we're confident TP will bet. If we bet and TP calls BB will be correct to call with any piece of the board (gut-shot, middle or bottom pair), while check/raising him will trap him for a big mistake.

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I really disagree with this, Nick. Each time BB called, he had to call 1 bet, and was correct to do so. By betting out, TP might raise and that would charge BB two. Then his call would be a mistake. But because of OP's checkraise, BB was getting proper odds to overcall the flop then call the raise.

I'm not saying TP would have raised -- he likely would not -- but by trapping BB, all the OP is doing is keeping him in the pot with odds to draw, not getting him out or causing him to make a mathematical mistake by calling.
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  #17  
Old 12-26-2005, 08:53 AM
imashyboi imashyboi is offline
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Default Re: RESULTS

The more I think about this situation the more I like the bet/3bet line. The question I have here though is this, whats the chances of TP raising with his ace? How confident are we on our read that he does have an ace and not a pocket pair. If he's the aggressive type I really like betting out in this situation to fold any draws. The problem with the board though is that there are only 3 gutshots available, 2/3, 5/6, and 7/6. With only 2 players in the pot its a rarity that someone actually have them in their holding specially since someone raised preflop.

Do we want to elimiate the gutshot in this situation or trap them? The answer is, we want to shut them out now. If we bet and TP raises the player with the gutshot is making a mistake by calling. We're calling the raise regardless and will make it 3bets if gutshots call. If I end up being headsup against TP I'll smooth call and c/raise the turn instead. I'm pretty sure he'll call the river if he has an ace too.
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  #18  
Old 12-26-2005, 09:59 AM
Nick Royale Nick Royale is offline
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Default Re: AK flop decision - 20/40

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I really disagree with this, Nick. Each time BB called, he had to call 1 bet, and was correct to do so. By betting out, TP might raise and that would charge BB two. Then his call would be a mistake. But because of OP's checkraise, BB was getting proper odds to overcall the flop then call the raise.

I'm not saying TP would have raised -- he likely would not -- but by trapping BB, all the OP is doing is keeping him in the pot with odds to draw, not getting him out or causing him to make a mathematical mistake by calling.

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I'm not trying to be a dick here, but this shows big flaws in your mathematical thinking. You should look at the odds he's actually getting to see the turn card (his first call is no good since it gets him no new card). The odds he got on the flop was 10.5:2, certainly not a good call for a gutshot. Thus he was making a pretty big mistake.

You can always argue betting out would be better and I agree the vast majority of the time betting out is better. You have to be very confident that the player behind will bet here for check/raising to be correct, but it seemed to me OP was.
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  #19  
Old 12-26-2005, 10:02 AM
Pharity Pharity is offline
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Default Re: AK flop decision - 20/40

This is totally wrong and very basic. You really need to read TOP, i've seen you write these things time and time again. No offense.
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  #20  
Old 12-26-2005, 04:17 PM
private joker private joker is offline
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Default Re: AK flop decision - 20/40

You guys need to realize the advanced level of fuzzy math I perform at the table. BB was actually getting 2.6:Cheney to call, which is more than enough considering his implied Gore odds. Fuzzy math rules. But it probably explains my downswing...
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