newbie questions plus simple hand

[the_joker]

Hi, I'm fairly new to O8, trying to branch out from NL Holdem SNG's. I have a couple of newbie questions and a simple hand...

I'm just curious what the optimal VP$IP is for lower limits. I'm at around 9%. I multi-table, so being tight obviously allows me to play more tables, but maybe this is too tight? Basically, I play any A2, A3, with no danglers (no 7, 8, or 9's). A2 with a dangler if it's suited, pocket aces double suited, but not too much else. I presently suck post flop, so maybe this isn't too bad being this tight until I figure out what the heck I'm doing [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Also, here's a simple hand. Do I call on the river? Bet and fold to a raise? I think this may be a bad fold since the flush was back-door. Also, is there any trick to get the hand converter working with O8? Thanks!

***** Hand History for Game 2936025737 *****
$0.50/$1 Omaha Hi/Lo - Wednesday, October 26, 20:29:19 EDT 2005
Table Table 65790 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: Foyan25 ( $10 )
Seat 2: ButterBoys1 ( $24 )
Seat 3: PlayNrags ( $18.75 )
Seat 4: Tychobrahe ( $20.50 )
Seat 5: mb1971111 ( $19.25 )
Seat 6: dwright49 ( $30.12 )
Seat 7: ZK_AK ( $41.38 )
Seat 8: Crazy24 ( $27.03 )
Seat 9: mike763 ( $23.75 )
Seat 10: Smellytoes1 ( $21.65 )
Crazy24 posts small blind [$0.25].
mike763 posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to mike763 [ 7c Jd 5c 4h ]
Smellytoes1 calls [$0.50].
ButterBoys1 folds.
Tychobrahe calls [$0.50].
mb1971111 calls [$0.50].
dwright49 calls [$0.50].
ZK_AK calls [$0.50].
Crazy24 calls [$0.25].
mike763 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8c, 6s, 4d ]
Crazy24 checks.
mike763 bets [$0.50].
Smellytoes1 calls [$0.50].
Tychobrahe calls [$0.50].
mb1971111 calls [$0.50].
dwright49 folds.
ZK_AK folds.
Crazy24 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qc ]
mike763 bets [$1].
Smellytoes1 calls [$1].
Tychobrahe folds.
mb1971111 calls [$1].
** Dealing River ** [ Jc ]
mike763 checks.
Smellytoes1 checks.
mb1971111 bets [$1].
mike763 folds.
Smellytoes1 folds.
mb1971111 does not show cards.
mb1971111 wins $9

[Ironman]

Mike,

This is a terrible fold.

Ouch.

Could someone with a made low back into a flush? Sure, but I think there was a better way to play this hand from the big blind.

Check raise the flop. Someone with a made low is going to bet this flop, so don't be afraid that it will get checked through. It won't.

Make those A 2's put in two bets for every one of yours.

Turn...I'd try it again. No one with an A 2 is going to let this get past without putting in a bet. If no one bets, then I'd lead the river making them think you are the one with A 2. The week lows might actually fold.

River...I'd check call. But I certainly wouldn't fold because of the flush.

By the way, 9 vpip is probably too low. As you feel more comfortable with the game, open up to include more A 3 and A 4 hands in the right positions with the right complimenting cards.

Good luck,

Dave

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe this is too tight? Basically, I play any A2, A3, with no danglers (no 7, 8, or 9's). A2 with a dangler if it's suited, pocket aces double suited, but not too much else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joker - It's too tight for anyone who knows the game, but probably not too tight for a beginner if it's not so tight that you're bored.

However, if you multi-tabling, sounds like you're bored.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, here's a simple hand. Do I call on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Don't <font color="white">_</font>draw to a baby flush, but if you make a baby flush on the river, it's worth a call.

[ QUOTE ]
Bet and fold to a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You'd only do that if you were bluffing with nothing. Here you have a baby flush, a possible winner. Opponents will occasionally raise you on the river as a bluff. I'd say check and call with this hand/board. If you check, many opponents will bet the river for you and then, unless your hand is strong enough to check-raise, you simply call. It's a way to get a bet out of an opponent you otherwise would not have gotten on the river, and it's safer than betting the river yourself.

[ QUOTE ]
I think this may be a bad fold since the flush was back-door.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. It's a bad fold even if the flush is not back-door.

mb1971111 possibly has a higher flush, but probably simply has some sort of low hand.

I disagree with Dave about going for a check raise on the flop. Your hand/flop simply isn't strong enough to risk giving a free card on the flop. Bet to try to knock out someone who otherwise might "draw out" on you.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Ironman]

That's interesting Buzz.

I understand what you are saying about the hand not being strong enough for a "slow play" but I guess that's why I want to play it faster.

I want the drawing hands to think long and hard about a nut low and a made high hand going into a raising war.

I would find it almost impossible for an A 2 (or A 3) in late position to let this flop go through without a bet.

Very interesting.

Dave

By the way...I didn't see in my original post that the hero made a baby flush on the river...sorry, missed that.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I would find it almost impossible for an A 2 (or A 3) in late position to let this flop go through without a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Dave - Agreed. Good point. Someone behind Hero will probably bet this if Hero checks.

I see a number of different possibilities.

(1) If Hero checks, if the next two players also check, and if the last player bets, then Hero can raise (check-raise) so as to confront the intervening players with a double bet.

(2) If Hero bets and if the very next player raises, then the last two players are confronted with a double bet. This can't happen unless Hero bets.

(3) If Hero checks and nobody bets, Hero will have given away a free card. Whether or not this happens depends very much on the players in your game and where they're sitting, but in any event it does not seem a rare occurance to me.

(4) There are some other possibilities.

In a ten handed game, when you have neither an ace nor a deuce, someone else will have been dealt A2XY roughly three hands out of every five, and if so, they'll probably be seeing the flop, and they'll also probably be betting this flop and possibly raising if you be6t first.

At any rate, I can see your point. A check raise might work out better. (But it might not).

[ QUOTE ]
but I guess that's why I want to play it faster.

[/ QUOTE ]

My initial reaction to that sentence was, "But you're not playing it faster if you check." However, I do see that by check-raising you might (or might not) have a better chance of knocking out a player behind you who otherwise might draw out on you. Thus check-raising might (or might not) protect your hand better than betting directly.

O.K., I can see it. Makes sense.

As an aside, I admit a natural aversion to check-raises in limit Omaha-8 games, and not just because you often end up giving a free card. Although check-raising is part of the game, I think play is more congeneal without the tactic.

I don't play on the internet - probably doesn't matter there, but in a live game there's simply no way of getting around the fact that people tend to be offended when check-raised, whether you think they should be or not.

I believe you do better in life and in poker if you avoid offending people where possible.

I do see the point of check-raising here against some groups of opponents.

However, since betting directly in this instance very well may work better than check-raising, and since betting directly does not have the potential daanger of possibly giving a free card, betting directly seems a stronger play then trying for a check-raise.

I'll admit my natural aversion to check-raising may be affecting my decision. I do check raise when I think it's clearly best, for example as a defense when someone is semi-bluffing too often behind me. But I don't think it's clearly the best tactic to use here.

Just my opinion.

Buzz