PP 15/30 Blind Defence

philnewall · #1 04-06-2005, 12:07 PM

No stats or read on my opponent....what's your plan after the ace fall's on 4th? I couldn't see myself being ahead much of the time.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, CO raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, CO caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets,Hero ?
Final Pot: 7.50 BB

fnord_too · #2 04-06-2005, 02:12 PM

I will usually get to the turn quite differently. I call pre flop, then usually check raise, sometimes lead hoping to raise, the flop. I hate raising this from the BB pf almost as much as I hate folding pf.

Getting there the way you did, I think raising and folding to a three bet is viable. I think your only real shot at taking the pot down is if villain has JJ-KK and folds to a check raise. Folding does not look awuful, either.

philnewall · #3 04-06-2005, 03:10 PM

I was in the SB...from your post it seems as if you thought I was in the BB. I don't like calling as it lets the BB in cheaply, and gives me the chance to resteal when I miss the flop.

I thought if my oppt had a large PP there was no way I was getting him off the hand, and on the turn with the ace coming I couldn't see my hand beating much.

Results:

I check folded the turn and he showed king-9.

bugstud · #4 04-06-2005, 03:12 PM

I call PF because it's going to be hard to get him to laydown a better hand. 3betting commits a lot of chips postflop OOP.

fnord_too · #5 04-06-2005, 03:36 PM

I was thinking you were in the BB. I think I still call here if I play, I just don't like pumping up the pot with QT when I am going to be out of position. If the BB comes along, fine. I don't know that I play this out of the sb though. In the 15 game I probably do to the 2/3 sb structure.

MVicuna · #6 04-06-2005, 04:48 PM

Hi,

He's getting 1:8 to catch two pair, and a lot of people will check behind on the river with the over pair fearing that ace after you call the turn so you get a free showdown a lot.

I think folding here is probably out given how much money was invested.

The CR idea has merit if CO is predictable enough to only have JJ-AA to make that cap preflop. The question is do we bluff the river if we blank or do we take the free showdown? Given the pot size, I think bluffing the river after CR two streets seems like a plan that will work way more then the 10% of the time to steal this pot off of KK/QQ/JJ.

The largest error I think was preflop. you really shouldn't 3 bet this unless CO is a habitual blind stealer and if he his you need to call this down. Because 3 betting preflop and calling a 3 bet on the flop and then check/folding the turn getting 1:8 is just asking for people to run all over you.

Later,
MarkV.

philnewall · #7 04-06-2005, 05:09 PM

I can't believe you're all so against the 3-bet preflop.Against an average CO steal raiser on these games QTs should at least breakeven against his range of hands, and by 3-betting I can knock the BB out, get dead money in the pot and give myself a much better chance of winning the hand without improvement.

Supposing you did just call with QTs and the BB folded how would you play if you missed the flop?

MVicuna · #8 04-06-2005, 05:37 PM

Hi,

With *NO* read on the CO how do we know he's a loose blind stealer? Give us something to work with and we'll be more inclined to endorse your Lagtastic play as QT is behind almost all blind stealing hands.

Given your insistance on QTs being a 3 betting hand vs a LP raise I think he very well thought his King high was the best hand as I can imagine your 3 betting with any hand you'll defend with so we have to discount his cap as being legit as you have a very LAG image.

So I think you need to call down with any hand with showdown value as I don't think he's getting moved off of any pair at this point and you just have to hope for the best, i.e. he's not folding his middle pair vs that 1 over card on the flop and the turn bet is to fold if CR and/or to ensure a free showdown.

The reason we are against 3 betting with hands as week as QTs is because your table image is very important at 15/30 where people are paying attention to it. If your constantly 3 betting preflop and then folding the turn you're going to be pegged as a weak LAG and people will start bluffing at you a LOT HU when you check to them.

With a hand like QTs I don't care if the BB comes along or not if he out flops me he out flops me.

If I miss the flop complete oh well, next hand please. The value I get in calling the raise with QTs is not lost. Now if it was an opponent I had a good read on and great control over I will make a move on the pot, but otherwise you have to assume he has you beat and is going to call you down becuase your 3 bet has swollen the pot its foolish to fold because of YOUR IMAGE.

Later,
MarkV.

W. Deranged · #9 04-06-2005, 06:14 PM

I don't like the pre-flop isolation play, as many people have said. QTs plays well with a few players in, and I actually wonder if having a third player in will benefit you in that it will make the hand easier to play. As has been noted, many of the stealing hands your opponent will have contain K's and Q's, which you are behind heads-up; you might as well go for a larger multi-way pot to increase the value of your hand.

philnewall · #10 04-06-2005, 06:16 PM

My image vis a vis my opponent was not a consideration in this hand as I had about 15 hands on him in my PT database. I definetly do not 3-bet with any hand I'm defending with, only the ones with high card value. As to my LAG image this is hardly the case because at 15/10 I'm tighter than most people on this board. The only way you could think of me as being a LAG is if you saw some of my very aggressive play in a small number of hands and took it out of context.

The reason I folded was because of his action, I assumed that my 3-bet and his subsequent cap preflop narrowed his range of possible hands down, aswell as my flop c/r and his 3-bet. With the ace coming on the turn I just thought that because of the information I had gathered through my earlier aggeressive play my hand was beat and I folded. Of course now I realise that this may have been an unwise fold.