How's your SSNLHE?: 22

[Skuzzy]

I like the preflop raise and prefer to over bet than make a std raise. I want villain to fold here rather than play OOP, but I think the weak line is to complete on grounds of pot management. This may be another Reubenism I carry in my head but I like to charge people to play me when OOP. I think the raise also gives me the initiative which is important when you have decided to play a hand OOP. Having established I have strength, a C-bet by me will often take down the pot.
I'm not planning to play this hand for implied odds of a set either. So I struggle to call if I'd ony completed, especially with just 22.

Do we contest this pot once the flop comes down? I think without raising it preflop you should nearly always check/fold a flop like this. Your hand cant take any heat. As a preflop raiser I think we give ourselves an option to c-bet with a reasonable (normal) chance of success though.

[c_strong]

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I like the preflop raise and prefer to over bet than make a std raise. I want villain to fold here rather than play OOP, but I think the weak line is to complete on grounds of pot management. This may be another Reubenism I carry in my head but I like to charge people to play me when OOP. I think the raise also gives me the initiative which is important when you have decided to play a hand OOP. Having established I have strength, a C-bet by me will often take down the pot.
I'm not planning to play this hand for implied odds of a set either. So I struggle to call if I'd ony completed, especially with just 22.

Do we contest this pot once the flop comes down? I think without raising it preflop you should nearly always check/fold a flop like this. Your hand cant take any heat. As a preflop raiser I think we give ourselves an option to c-bet with a reasonable (normal) chance of success though.

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I was going to post something similar but couldn't put it any better. That's exactly my line, for the same reasons.

[4_2_it]

I haven't read all the responses, but I really like a check raise on this flop. If villain stays in then I shut it down and move along since I have the lowest possible pair OOP. I think putting any chips into the middle after that would be spewing. Glad to see you bring one of these back. Each one has been very good for generating discussion.

Wow, I got a shout out! I am honored since I am a set miner at heart [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[PokerFink]

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I want villain to fold here rather than play OOP, but I think the weak line is to complete on grounds of pot management. This may be another Reubenism I carry in my head but I like to charge people to play me when OOP.

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In other words, you like building pots with marginal hands OOP?

You need to rethink this.

[xcrack999]

I like leading or check-raising that flop. I want to win the pot now. I might check-call, lead turn if I have a hand like 88 or 77, but 22 is just too vulnerable to try to take this hand further than the flop, IMHO.

[sourbeaver]

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easily within 5/10 guide for pp's so don't

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The problem here is that his raising range from the BB against a lone completing SB is probably much wider than usual if he's got some aggression in him. Say he raises 20% of the time in that spot, the 5/10 rule doesn't apply because you are getting nowhere near the implied odds against what is essentially a semi-random hand.

Countless times I've flopped sets in this kind of HU situations, only to find out villain would oblige a CB, maybe a turn CB, but no more.

[Skuzzy]

I hate building pots with marginal hands. I don't play marginal hands. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I do play 22 and I think of it as a hand with two ways to win, it can steal (as can any hand) or it can hit a set. I might 'get caught OOP' with 88 thinking its the best hand on a ragged flop but I dont see any inherent value in 22 unless it improves. That said...

I raise preflop to take the pot there, to set up a steal on the flop or to build a pot for the 12% of times I hit a set and want a bigger pot to play in. I fold to a reraise pre flop, I fold to a reraise on the flop without a set, and if I get called on the flop, I figure I'm beat and just check/fold the turn.

I recognise though that this thinking may be wrong, I'm not sure why though. If someone could explain why this is so bad I'd appreciate it. I'm still just learning this game so I'm not being a smart ass or sarcastic in this post, I just don't get why my line is bad.

[4_2_it]

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I raise preflop to take the pot there, to set up a steal on the flop or to build a pot for the 12% of times I hit a set and want a bigger pot to play in.

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I think a better way to steal the pot is to call the raise and check raise any flop. Unless villain has the goods, he will lay his hand down. Pre-flop raising wars OOP are very dangerous and I tend to avoid them without AA or KK.

Check-raise flop is defenitely the way to go here IMO. If you get called or reraised, you know your pair is no good and go into check-fold mode.

Also, I only complete preflop.

[ajmargarine]

Alot of interesting comments. Some thoughts:

--This was actually an MTT hand that I played when we were down to the final 3. I limp/called a raise preflop, and chose a c/r on the flop, and had to fold to a push from villian who showed his TT afterwards. I modified the hand for the quiz. FYI, action Hero takes in the quiz isn't alway optimal. (The villian hands described in the reads were hands he had played earlier in the MTT when we were at the same table. That table broke up and when we met back at the final table I was perplexed that he was still around. FWIW, I took 2nd and he won. And then 2 nights later in the same small (~70 player) tourney, I took 2nd to him again. So he knows his way around the felt a little bit.)

--I'm somewhat surprised with the ratio of raisers vs. completers preflop. I was hoping some of the 6-max heavy hitters like TWP, Ghaz, Xorbie, etc. would chime in with their thoughts. I've kind of evolved from a completer to a raiser in this spot (even though I play full ring, and folding to me in SB when I have a small pp might come up once in a blue moon).

The advantages of raising are that we may take it down right there, or that we are the aggressor in the hand and can take it down with a bet on the flop. And if we hit our set, the pot has a little something in it. 22 isn't great, but it's ahead of all but 12 hands right now, so we are probably best and aren't we supposed to bet when we have the best hand?

--I can't see folding preflop to villian's raise as some have chosen in the quiz. We know he's going to CB. If we hit a set, we can count on him adding to the pot almost automatically. If we c/c our set (on certain flops), he gets 4 cards to make a pair/2 pair hand, where we can get adequate $$$ back from him to make the $2.50 call worthwhile preflop. Plus, there will be times he has Q8 or AJ and fold to a flop c/r.

--Do we contest the pot is the other big question. And how do we go about it. Very often the flop will be such that we shouldn't bother contesting it at all in these situation. Draw heavy or J-A high probably just c/f. We have a dry board here, and he should be able to find a fold with overs or air if we c/r the flop and that's why I think we should contest it with a c/r. HU, one pair hands are often good, no matter the size of the pair.