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#41
10-11-2005, 06:36 AM
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Re: Party rakeback
[ QUOTE ]
What you guys received from your play on the skins should be considered a privilige and not looked at as a loss. The skins were set up to help party grow into a bigger site than it was. Instead, the independently operated sister sites and skin affiliate managers used these skins as a vehicle to steal existing players away from Party and move those players over to them. Party wants nothing more than to bring those people back. The players get the blunt end of it, but you know what? Players aren't supposed to be getting rakeback to begin with. So, consider anything at all to be a huge bonus on top of your poker winnings. As far as Party Poker is concerned (and rightfully so), they aren't screwing anyone. [/ QUOTE ] I'm going to hold back a little from what I was originally going to post. Party is not infallible. You view all their actions through rose colored glasses. Their separation from the skins was a naked grab for power/money. How can you say that they were not trying to screw affiliates and players? They didn't even warn the skins in advance. I refuse to look at the money I made from rakeback on the skins as a priviledge. I have donated tens of thousands of dollars to Party's coffers. They want to gouge me for even more. Period. As for the comments you made on 35% MGR being impossible and the absence of collusion, I'd caution you to be careful about rushing to uninformed conclusions. Common sense dictates that Party would offer greater incentives to their biggest affiliates when Eurobet and Empire were undercutting them with better return rates. Also, it is in Party's best interest that no rate undercutting or fradulent account creation occurs in the future, so they have great incentive to place a cieling on rakeback rates. 25% is not a reasonable market determined rate because 1. the market hasn't had time to set a price and 2. the previous rates on other skins resulted in a 2.5% MGR profit to affiliates and the remainder went to the players. Right now, 5%(or more depending on whether you deny greater incentives for big MGR affiliates) is going to affiliates in these 25% deals. You have made a lot of bold statements with an air of absolute authority, but you did not offer proof to refute my two earlier claims. I believe you were hasty in your judgments. There is more going on behind the scenes than you realize. 
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#42
10-11-2005, 06:49 AM
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Re: Party rakeback
[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to hold back a little from what I was originally going to post. [/ QUOTE ] I tried to make my second post sound less angry... Oh well, I give up. It's been a rough week as I'm losing thousands of dollars waiting for the rakeback waters to clear up after Party blindsided all of us.
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#43
10-11-2005, 06:51 AM
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Re: Party rakeback
I just wasted 10 minutes of my life responding to your last post only to find you deleted it on me.
I only put that post up in an attempt to be helpful to the players that frequent this forum. Now, I refuse to spend anymore time with you on this. You're entitled to your opinions.
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#45
10-11-2005, 09:23 AM
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Re: Party rakeback
[ QUOTE ]
I have been an affiliate for 22 months now and out of the 140 player accounts that I've signed up, NONE of them involved rakeback. [/ QUOTE ] Could you explain how you know so much about the inner working of rakeback deals if you've never offered them? [ QUOTE ] 25% is the standard maximum on a single account. 30% is the absolute maximum if affiliate and sub-affiliate accounts are joined (against Party Poker policy). 35% does not exist. [/ QUOTE ] Could you comment on the post earlier in this thread claiming to have gotten 32%? [ QUOTE ] No collusion is involved. There are way too many affiliates for this to be possible. What you are seeing is a reasonable, competitive market rate based on what's available to them. [/ QUOTE ] Its interesting that you seem to love the competitive forces of the free market here... [ QUOTE ] Instead, the independently operated sister sites and skin affiliate managers used these skins as a vehicle to steal existing players away from Party and move those players over to them. [/ QUOTE ] ...and despise them here, and in the rest of your rant about how players don't "deserve" whatever pay they can negotiate in a free market. [ QUOTE ] I speak to my manager all the time and he is adamant when he says that Party Poker does not condone rakeback in any way, shape or form. At this point, Party is probably turning their heads the other way when it comes to rakeback investigation in an attempt to regain all of the accounts that were lost to skins. [/ QUOTE ] This is my biggest concern. I can easily see Party waiting for x length of time and then simply turning rakeback off again.
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#46
10-11-2005, 09:27 AM
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Re: Party rakeback
"No collusion is involved. There are way too many affiliates for this to be possible. What you are seeing is a reasonable, competitive market rate based on what's available to them."
Competitive market rate, come on, u serious? Reasonable. They try to get as much money they want and don't care about the players. They can do that because the players are not organized at all, not even the top pros on WPT etc. In golf and other games the top pros is being paid for providing television coverage. In poker they have to pay themselves and contest for their own money while the WPT and makes big bucks on television coverage. It would be great if 100s of semipros on 2+2 could make a deal and get out and ask for the best rakeback rate and the affiliate with the best offer gets it. If he sees he can make 10000s of dollars getting 1.5% he might take that instead of not getting anything at all. That is a working market rate.
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#47
10-11-2005, 09:32 AM
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Re: Party rakeback
Hi Jeff,
some good points here. [ QUOTE ] Party is not infallible. You view all their actions through rose colored glasses. Their separation from the skins was a naked grab for power/money. How can you say that they were not trying to screw affiliates and players? They didn't even warn the skins in advance. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah this was definitely a dick move. I also think it was brilliant on their part, even though it made a nice hassle for me. [ QUOTE ] I refuse to look at the money I made from rakeback on the skins as a priviledge. I have donated tens of thousands of dollars to Party's coffers. They want to gouge me for even more. Period. [/ QUOTE ] I hate that I'll be making less than I was before, but isn't party really [censored] the affiliates here? I mean I can't really shed a tear cause a lot of them made/will make MAD bank, but from Party's end it's the same market as before right? They pay affiliates to sign up players, and from there isn't the deal done from party's end? except for their vested interest in no rakeback, i.e. by not allowing rakeback they can minimize percentage wars...right? It doesnt seem to me like they're robbing from the players and giving it to the dikshit. [ QUOTE ] Also, it is in Party's best interest that no rate undercutting or fradulent account creation occurs in the future, so they have great incentive to place a cieling on rakeback rates. 25% is not a reasonable market determined rate because 1. the market hasn't had time to set a price and 2. the previous rates on other skins resulted in a 2.5% MGR profit to affiliates and the remainder went to the players. Right now, 5%(or more depending on whether you deny greater incentives for big MGR affiliates) is going to affiliates in these 25% deals. [/ QUOTE ] I think this follows from (or just plain is?) the end of my last statement, but yeah I can see how party would want this. I wonder if Empire/Eurobet sets a precedent here, because that market seemed like it was about to stabilize but even at the end it was growing slowly. Perhaps Party is setting a cap early? I dunno. I hear lots of rumors on this but nothing substantiated. anyways just rambling, hope everything gets worked out soon
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#48
10-11-2005, 10:22 AM
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Re: Party rakeback
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I have been an affiliate for 22 months now and out of the 140 player accounts that I've signed up, NONE of them involved rakeback. [/ QUOTE ] Could you explain how you know so much about the inner working of rakeback deals if you've never offered them? [/ QUOTE ] Why do I have to offer them to know about them? Does something special happen when I give the money to a player? I maintain my trackers and affiliate stats just like everyone else. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] 25% is the standard maximum on a single account. 30% is the absolute maximum if affiliate and sub-affiliate accounts are joined (against Party Poker policy). 35% does not exist. [/ QUOTE ] Could you comment on the post earlier in this thread claiming to have gotten 32%? [/ QUOTE ] I will be glad to comment when I see someone get 32% for 3 months or longer, not just as an offer. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Instead, the independently operated sister sites and skin affiliate managers used these skins as a vehicle to steal existing players away from Party and move those players over to them. [/ QUOTE ] ...and despise them here, and in the rest of your rant about how players don't "deserve" whatever pay they can negotiate in a free market. [/ QUOTE ] I never said players don't deserve rakeback. Save quotation marks for when you are actually quoting someone. I'm not an advocate against rakeback, I'm an advocate for it. Remember, I'm still a strategy poster and a player. Rakeback = +EV. The fact still remains that we cheated the system to be able to receive rakeback. That goes for all of us (players, affiliates, affiliate managers) ALL OF US. The result: A community of spoiled poker players and affiliates who consider rakeback as an entitlement that is immune to repossession. Everyone gets caught doing something they weren't allowed to do in the first place and the whining begins. Live with it. When I started playing online 3 years ago, there were no seperate affiliate trackers and there was no rakeback. If everyone else started there, they would look at it the same way I do. Online poker is wonderful; rakeback is a GIFT. I guess it's just a matter of perspective. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I speak to my manager all the time and he is adamant when he says that Party Poker does not condone rakeback in any way, shape or form. At this point, Party is probably turning their heads the other way when it comes to rakeback investigation in an attempt to regain all of the accounts that were lost to skins. [/ QUOTE ] This is my biggest concern. I can easily see Party waiting for x length of time and then simply turning rakeback off again. [/ QUOTE ] This could easily happen.
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#49
10-11-2005, 10:34 AM
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Re: Party rakeback
[ QUOTE ]
"No collusion is involved. There are way too many affiliates for this to be possible. What you are seeing is a reasonable, competitive market rate based on what's available to them." Competitive market rate, come on, u serious? Reasonable. They try to get as much money they want and don't care about the players. They can do that because the players are not organized at all, not even the top pros on WPT etc. In golf and other games the top pros is being paid for providing television coverage. In poker they have to pay themselves and contest for their own money while the WPT and makes big bucks on television coverage. It would be great if 100s of semipros on 2+2 could make a deal and get out and ask for the best rakeback rate and the affiliate with the best offer gets it. If he sees he can make 10000s of dollars getting 1.5% he might take that instead of not getting anything at all. That is a working market rate. [/ QUOTE ] Finally a voice of reason. No point in blaming Party for being "greedy", that's just how the world works. We can only blame ourselves for not fighting back in an intelligent way. Party is a business, and each of us is a business. We should behave like a business.
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