3-bet pre-flop or check-raise the flop?

[dave44]

Stellar, how much weight do you give to the concept of "initiative"? It seems to me that "initiative" may not actually be a real advantage in a game between two perfect players.

Putting in the last raise preflop tends to limit the range of hands a player can be put on. On one hand, this can help you steal a pot when a flop hits your strong range of hands hard, but misses your particular hand. On the other hand, when your opponent can limit your range of hands, he can play better against you.

If players simply erased their memory of who put in the last raise, all that last raise you put in preflop did was allow your opponent to better define your hand.

Thus, I don't think that the way people discuss "initiative" having value is always correct. Against a weak player who will now fold too much, there is value. But against an aggressive player who can read hands, "initiative" doesn't seem to mean anything. Deciding whether to put in that last raise should be made based on the benefits in the immediate value you gain and the cost of allowing your opponent to define your range more accurately.

[StellarWind]

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Stellar, how much weight do you give to the concept of "initiative"?

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I spend a lot of time thinking about this and I still don't know much.

In regards to this thread, both main lines are an attempt to seize the initiative. One could argue that the preflop 3-bet is more intimidating because of the overpair threat. Or one could argue that an attacked launched after the flop is visible is more credible because Hero made an informed decision.

Intimidation is in the eye of the beholder. The more effective threat may be opponent-dependent.

I think the initiative can be overrated because Hero doesn't see what Villain folded. There are so many cases where you 3-bet preflop, autobet the flop, take down the pot, and feel great about your game. Until you look at your hand and reflect that whatever rubbish Villain folded, he certainly did the right thing. People don't fold good hands very much.

The initiative is a semibluffing concept and bluffs only fit certain types of hands. I commented recently in a specific situation that 3-betting QJs headsup preflop might be risky but at least it is well-motivated. A similar play with 33 is pretty hopeless because the only hands that fold postflop are the ones you hope will call you down.