Dealing with Large Losses at a Very Good Table

z80x86 · #1 07-02-2005, 02:35 AM

I've recently moved up to the 5/10 full games. I'm sufficiently bankrolled ($4700) and have been a consistent winner in the past. Tonight I sat down at some tables at Empire, made okay wins at two of them, but at two of them I was getting killed. The tables were incredibly loose and aggressive, and many pots were approaching the 20BB point. Within an hour I had lost $400 between the two. I know that this is normal (only 40BB), but this isn't a thread where I'm looking for sympathy.

Problem was that I felt I was on the brink of going on a serious tilt because my solid hands were getting annihilated. I cut my loses, but am kinda disappointed I had to leave such a great game.

How do you guys relax the mind when in a situation like this?

Bodhi · #2 07-02-2005, 04:14 AM

I click the button that says "more chips." 40bb is substantial, but it's super easy to lose that much in an hour. It doesn't happen often, but every once in a while you just loose, loose, and loose, you know? Maybe you're not comfortable at 5/10 even though you have the bankroll for it. Personally, I linger at limits lower than I have to for quite a while before I'm comfortable moving up.

MrStretchie · #3 07-02-2005, 06:12 AM

I know exactly how you feel man. One thing I like to do is cheer for the fish. Every pot they win is like money one step closer to me. (Even if it had a lot of my money in it..) Not saying that always works, but it helps.

Another thing to remember - more strategy than dealing with it - if a table is very loose, but also very aggressive, you really need to play tightly. You don't have to worry about appearing tight if they're insane like that. And if they do start to go passive when you're in hands, then you can start playing it like a regular loose/passive again, and you're golden. Anyway, it has the added benefit that if you're just playing 'tight is right' by the book, it's pretty hard to go on tilt. You can just tell yourself "This is the way to beat a crazy game like this. I'm waiting for a premium hand, then I'm getting paid off."
Check out the HEPFAP section about 'wild games'.

-Stretch

Bodhi · #4 07-02-2005, 04:47 PM

The only thing I disagree with is "...and then I'm geting paid off." If you don't want tilt, don't worry about when you'll get paid and stick to the premium cards.

Dov · #5 07-02-2005, 11:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've recently moved up to the 5/10 full games.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The tables were incredibly loose and aggressive, and many pots were approaching the 20BB point.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, the 5/10 is normally described by higher limit players as passive, and lower limit players as aggressive. It is important for you to realize that being new to this limit, the game may not have been as aggressive looking to the regulars as it was to you.

That said, it is certainly possible that you were in such a game. The main thing to remember in these games is that you will usually need to show the best hand to win, at least the first 8-10 hands that you show down, before you start thinking about bluffing on the end in a hand that you will have to show.

They aren't going to fold after putting 4-6 bets a piece into the pot unless you give them a real good reason.

[ QUOTE ]
Problem was that I felt I was on the brink of going on a serious tilt because my solid hands were getting annihilated. I cut my loses, but am kinda disappointed I had to leave such a great game.

How do you guys relax the mind when in a situation like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your solid hands may have been easy to read.

Remember that you are the new guy here. These guys may simply have had your number and you didn't give them enough credit.

If the losing hurts, then stop immediately. If you want to continue playing that limit, then take a break and reexamine your play in PT. If you can satisfy yourself that nothing is wrong, then continue.

If you can't tell, then post the problem hands and step back down until you get the answers you need.

Hope this helps.

z80x86 · #6 07-03-2005, 03:50 AM

Thank you very much for the help guys. Played again tonight and did better. Even though I had a pretty large downswing following an upswing, I didn't have the same types of feelings I had the day before. Ended the night up about 8BB. I'll keep all of your thoughts and suggestions in mind.

MrStretchie · #7 07-04-2005, 08:33 PM

Yes, good point. Didn't think about that when I wrote it. That's in fact a big source of tilt at these sorts of tables; when you finally catch cowboys and t7o beats you with a runner-runner straight or something.

However, Over Time those hands will pay off at this kind of table, and since they're willing to give so much action, they'll pay well enough that you can afford to wait for them.
Essentially it's the opposite strategy to a very loose and *passive* table, where you can play a lot of suited connectors, suited aces and even kings, low pocket pairs etc, because you know that they'll pay off well *in comparison to what it costs to see the flop*.

TomBrooks · #8 07-05-2005, 02:47 AM

I've been in a similar situation a couple of times where I'm breaking even or winning on a couple of tight tables, and losing on a loose table that has the most fishy players. I have stayed on the loose table because I "know" that I stand my best chances of making the most money there.

I have suffered my biggest losses this way. In the most recent iteration of this, on one table I reloaded three times and lost 100 BB before I gave up. I think my play suffers and I get weak tight on these tables, even though I try to play my regular game. I may also go on tilt in some other small ways that I'm not even sure about. Now, I have decided to just take my small loss and get off these tables.

z80x86 · #9 07-05-2005, 03:26 AM

Here are two consecutive hands I had at a 5/10 table, I was trying to play as tightly and as aggressively as possible.

Kinda let my guard down on this first hand, only called that raise in the SB hoping for a jack. Caught the nut draw, and in my usual fasion juiced it for all it was worth, too bad I was drawing dead at the turn and caught the draw on the river.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 3 folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, UTG 3-bets, MP1 folds, Hero caps, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (10 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG raises, Hero calls.

River: (14 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18 BB

What do you think about this second hand? Pushed it too hard? I thought the aggression was needed on the first four streets, maybe a check behind on the river?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, 3 folds, UTG caps, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (13.40 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, CO calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (9.70 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, CO folds, UTG calls.

River: (13.70 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 15.70 BB

So its uh, (0.77 BB)/100 at 5/10 over the last 2017 hands. Just keep grinding at it?

Al Schoonmaker · #10 07-05-2005, 05:47 AM

Read Mason's "Do big pots mean great games?" The title may be slightly different, but I'm close. It's in one of his essays books or GTAOT.

He emphatically states that the sort of game you described is NOT great. It's fun, but the swings are enormous, and the win-rate is not that good.

The skill factor goes way down in importance because pots become so large that the muppets' great weakness, staying too long, becomes less of an error and may even be justified. The pot odds justify staying with almost anything, making the game more of a gamble than Mason and most other conservative players would like.

Bluffing is so common and the pots are so big that you are forced to call or even overcall with weak hands. You can't bluff.

All in all, those games LOOK much better than they are.

Regards,

Al