0.5/1 AQo missed...raise flop?

Obliky · #1 12-07-2005, 12:34 PM

UTG is 51/7/5 over 35 hands and seems LAG

Button is 50/0/2 over 70 hands

SB has only just arrived (about 10 hands ago) but seems fishy.

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG caps, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (17 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises......

Good? Bad? Ugly?

Peter Harris · #2 12-07-2005, 12:42 PM

I guess it drives out the Button some of the time, but you're drawing pretty thin. I like it here because the pot is already big, the read you have on the LAGgy player means you scare them a bit here when they hold 66, 77, 88, TT. They may hold AJ/AQ, the problem is a flush draw is out; then your queens are tainted (8T/KT straight) plus all [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] are not pleasant to see.

I like a flop raise, hoping to drive Button and/or SB out to hopefully a) clean up outs and b) maybe get UTG to check to you for a free river.

However, if Button/SB 3-bets and UTG caps, i fold; if UTG 3-bets i'll call and c/f an unhelpful turn.

How does this sound? Does c/f turn seem stupid in this large pot? I don't see how it isn't if the turn doesn't bring a T, Q, A and not a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]...

jaxUp · #3 12-07-2005, 12:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (17 SB) 2, 9, J (4 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises......

[/ QUOTE ]

Why did you choose to raise here? What are some benfits/drawbacks?

#4 12-07-2005, 12:44 PM

It's either raise or fold. I like raise right now. I hope to get it HU with position on villain. If it happens to come back two to me, I'll fold here.

I need to improve to put more money in on the turn.

Obliky · #5 12-07-2005, 01:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (17 SB) 2, 9, J (4 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises......

[/ QUOTE ]

Why did you choose to raise here? What are some benfits/drawbacks?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well as i saw the situation i didnt think a call had much going for it. I wasnt convinced that UTG had a hand (he had been playing pretty erratically earlier and the cap pre-flop doesnt necessarily mean a monster..just something reasonable) so i thought raising was good for these reasons:

1, Forces out players behind me. Obviously im not going to get a flush draw or str8 draw to fold..but if i could get a hand such as 55 or A2 to fold that would be v good if i am ahead of UTG.

2, May get me a free river card. If i can get HU w UTG then a free card could be nice.

3, If it gets raised/capped on the flop i can get out easily.

Some drawbacks:

1, If im behind i guess im drawing pretty thin. I cant really be sure that my overcard outs are clean and i guess i could be drawing pretty much dead to a set already (given the pre-flop action).

2, Say Button and SB do fold i may still end up folding the best hand. Say UTG has a flush draw if he 3-bets me on the flop im going to have to fold UI on the turn...however i cant really see a way around this other than calling down if we get HU.

I think im missing some of the drawbacks...

Edit: I guess my raise was generally to try to improve my chances of winning the hand by knocking out players.

jaxUp · #6 12-07-2005, 01:13 PM

So it seems like we don't really want to SD UI if it means we have to put in a bet on the big streets. This decreases the value of folding a hand like 55.

I really can't see you ever being ahead here, unless he would cap KQs/ATs.

Not only are your OCs likely dominated, but you are vulnerable to a redraw if A/Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] hits.

I think I might peel the flop and c/f turn UI, calling down if I hit something.

krimson · #7 12-07-2005, 01:13 PM

I think given the pot size you will have a difficult time cleaning outs. Most of the people with hands you want to fold (A2,A9,Q9,AK,etc) have odds to peel this off even for 2 bets.

If the table is particularly capable of folding post-flop, and doesn't pay attention to pot sizes etc, then the raise is okay. If the table is generally chasing down their hands, then I think you're just making for an expensive draw. Putting in more bets on the flop then you have to, and bloating the pot in the process, further tieing youself into the hand, and making it difficult to protect if you make your hand on the turn.

jba · #8 12-07-2005, 01:15 PM

I think we're behind and drawing very thin, I highly doubt A2 is ever folding in this ginormous pot. I'm peeling mostly because of the bd straight draw

Obliky · #9 12-07-2005, 02:07 PM

Thanks for the advice guys.

However, i have a confession to make. That raise was actually a hypothetical raise [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I was looking through my HH and i thought i should have raised here on the flop for the reasons i stated in a previous post.

In the actual hand i called (though i wasnt really sure what to do) planning to fold UI on the turn.

So that brings us to the turn:

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG caps, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (17 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, Button raises, SB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (11.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero ....

MrWookie47 · #10 12-07-2005, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's either raise or fold. I like raise right now. I hope to get it HU with position on villain. If it happens to come back two to me, I'll fold here.

I need to improve to put more money in on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't raise or fold. The pot is so big that calling is certainly an acceptable option.