Another Slotboom Misconception

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Rolf:

I see you finally got something right, although "weak-tight" has little to do with it. As I suggested to the other poster, you need to reread the subchapter "Use Tells Cautiously in Large Pots" starting on page 246. (I am assuming you read it but just didn't understand it. You did read this before writing your book review?)

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Derek:

Tells have their most importance in games where many of the pots only have a small number of players and the pot size is not to big (relative to the bet). The $80-$160 game that I often play in at The Bellagio is like this, as are short handed games. (See the chapter "A Note on Tells" on page 208 in Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players.)

{i]Small Stakes Hold 'em[/i] is targeted for games that feature many players who play too many hands and go too far with them. This is the precise game where the tells lose their value because it is very rare that you would change your strategy based on a tell. (Again, as I mentioned in my other posts, see the sub-chapter "Use Tells Cautiously in Large Pots" starting on page 246.)

Best wishes,
Mason

[gila]

[ QUOTE ]
Another item from that review of SSH:

"Mr. Sklansky's comment in the introduction that "making well over $50,000 per year playing $3-6 hold'em is now no big deal" (p. 2). In addition to the obvious question "How would he know - he probably has never played $3-6 in his entire life in a normal casino, let alone by multitabling on the Internet", there is this: it is simply not true."

I had the very same thought when I read SSH. Can someone here tell me they are making this kind of money at this limit?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no doubt there are many people here making this kind of money at this limit. With rakeback or a bonus, it is very reasonable to make $10 an hour at a full 3/6 game; 4 -tabling, that would be $40 an hour. With this win rate, you could work 30 hours a week and be well above 50,000 a year.

The problem arises with the "no big deal" because I believe it is a fairly big deal, and takes some serious study, to be able to beat 3/6 whilst 4-tabling for 1.5+ bb and hour. Again, though, there are many on this site that do just that.

[Derek in NYC]

Mason, you and I are in violent agreement here. Tells work less well in multiway large pots for the same reason bluffs work less well in such pots.

But my point was that tells are not irrelevant in small stakes games (e.g., the example I gave), and Slotboom's legitimate criticism of SSH is that Ed could have discussed specific, common tells in small stakes games in conjunction with his cautionary note.

Another similar tell to the one I gave might be if you are in the small blind in a 2/3 structured game, and are trying to decide whether to complete with two suited cards such as 10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] after 3 limpers. Any tell you can pick up as to the big blind's likely action (check or raise), is the determining factor about whether you should complete. If he has cut out chips to raise and is holding them in his right hand, I would not complete.

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Everyone:

Even though I believe that Rolf Slotboom is sincere in what he writes, in my opinion he is confused. Here's another example from his SSH review:

[ QUOTE ]
I found the section on tells rather disappointing. If what the author says is indeed true ("Small stakes games are usually rife with tells", p. 244), then he should have discussed this more into depth, rather than just saying that there's plenty of information on this subject available elsewhere.


[/ QUOTE ]

He has this completely wrong, and I thought it would be interesting to let others comment on it. That is you can either agree or disagree with me.

However, here's a hint: For a tell to be important it must not only be accurate, but it must change the way you would play your hand. For instance, if you have a tell that someone is bluffing, but you were going to call anyway, then the tell has no value.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Mason.

Three observations.

1. If Ed doesn't have any original thoughts as to what constitutes a tell, it's fine by me if he refers to other works for spotting tells. If he has some original thoughts on what constitutes a tell (in a game that's "rife" with them), it would have been nice to read about them. In this way, Rolf's mild criticism in an otherwise glowing review is somewhat picky.

2. You and Rolf are talking about different things. Rolf is talking about spotting tells, i.e. what constitutes a tell. You are talking about when and how to use tells, once spotted. Both are valuable skills.

3. Your statement about when a tell is important, while sound so far as it goes, is incomplete. Particularly in NL/PL games, but in also in limit. See why? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Alright, I'll give it up: spotting a tell in the current hand may not impact the way you play that hand, but could change the way you play a future hand against that opponent.

[Crispy86]

[ QUOTE ]
Mason, you and I are in violent agreement here. Tells work less well in multiway large pots for the same reason bluffs work less well in such pots.

But my point was that tells are not irrelevant in small stakes games (e.g., the example I gave), and Slotboom's legitimate criticism of SSH is that Ed could have discussed specific, common tells in small stakes games in conjunction with his cautionary note.

Another similar tell to the one I gave might be if you are in the small blind in a 2/3 structured game, and are trying to decide whether to complete with two suited cards such as 10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] after 3 limpers. Any tell you can pick up as to the big blind's likely action (check or raise), is the determining factor about whether you should complete. If he has cut out chips to raise and is holding them in his right hand, I would not complete.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to comment on the importance or not of tells, but might ask whether it is simply that Miller felt this was outside the proposed scope of his book, and preferred to refer to others rather than provide superficial comments on the subject.

[grimel]

Mason is refering to the part about calling may be a mistake, but not calling can be a disaster, becoming locked into a big pot, and once a pot reaches a certain size you have to be >90% certain you are beat before you can fold.

IMO, you might find one tell that is that reliable in every 500 table hours.

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to reread the subchapter "Use Tells Cautiously in Large Pots" that starts on page 246.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot isn't necessarily large because it's multiway. I might still be blind, but I only see Ed cautioning against using tells in large pots, not in any multiway pot. (But they are indeed mostly voided even in small multiway pots.)

That's the point you are making, and it's a point that isn't actually in SSH. It's obvious, but it's not printed. I know other reviewers who rant about people failing to state the obvious... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[uuDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Another item from that review of SSH:

"Mr. Sklansky's comment in the introduction that "making well over $50,000 per year playing $3-6 hold'em is now no big deal" (p. 2). In addition to the obvious question "How would he know - he probably has never played $3-6 in his entire life in a normal casino, let alone by multitabling on the Internet", there is this: it is simply not true."

I had the very same thought when I read SSH. Can someone here tell me they are making this kind of money at this limit?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no doubt there are many people here making this kind of money at this limit. With rakeback or a bonus, it is very reasonable to make $10 an hour at a full 3/6 game; 4 -tabling, that would be $40 an hour. With this win rate, you could work 30 hours a week and be well above 50,000 a year.

The problem arises with the "no big deal" because I believe it is a fairly big deal, and takes some serious study, to be able to beat 3/6 whilst 4-tabling for 1.5+ bb and hour. Again, though, there are many on this site that do just that.

[/ QUOTE ]

The original and most "fun" thread on this topic.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Albert:

No. Ed felt, and David and I agreed, that this just wasn't an important topic. However, I wanted to include something on tells in the manuscript. Ed and I talked about it one night and the result is the short section that is there.

Best wishes,
Mason