Middle Pair concerns

Nikademus · #1 11-14-2005, 02:43 PM

So, one of the holes in my game is aggession. I think this is the type of situation where I tighten up because I'm not sure what to do.

SB - 13%/6% AF 2.14 after 285 hands - likely the best (solid) player at the table
UTG+1 - 17%/2% AF 1.14 after 89 hands - Tight-passive, but maybe not catching any real cards.
EP - 72%/1% AF 0.77 after 107 hands - Complete fish, will show anything down.

PokerRoom 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, EP calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, CO (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, EP checks, Hero bets, CO folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, EP calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, EP checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG+1 calls, EP calls.

River: (9 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, EP checks, Hero ...

I'm not sure what SB & UTG+1 are hanging around for. From what I've seen, SB would have raised by now, and UTG+1 would have folded by now. EP doesn't worry me. So, I'm concerned about a Q, AJ, or a random 4. What's my line?

Thanks

TheMainEvent · #2 11-14-2005, 02:47 PM

I would raise PF if you're going to play at all. I would definately check the river with that many players calling me down.

#3 11-14-2005, 02:48 PM

Given your reads on the two better players, I'm happy to check behind here. SB will complete enough Q9s, QT hands to do this. If you were up against a bunch of EPish guys, then I think it's a valuebet.

Koss · #4 11-14-2005, 02:51 PM

I think busted draws fold and strangely played better hands call. I can't imagine anyone not betting a queen on that flop. Weak Q's might check/call. Other jacks would likely do the same. Still, I think I bet it. If the river had completed any logical draw this would be an easy check behind. Here, I think I bet expecting to take it down, and the few times I am called, I I will occasionally be shown a worse hand.

Schwartzy61 · #5 11-14-2005, 02:55 PM

I bet. I can think of several hands that are calling down in this situation that you have beat and will call a bet on the river.

Octopus · #6 11-14-2005, 03:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So, one of the holes in my game is aggression.

[/ QUOTE ]

First things first. Limping here is a significant error. If there is a poster and you are not in the blinds, then letting the poster in for free is almost always wrong. Even without the poster this is frequently a raise (and if not then is almost always a fold). With the poster, even more so.

As for the river, I think it is just too thin. I am checking behind.

Nikademus · #7 11-14-2005, 03:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
First things first. Limping here is a significant error. If there is a poster and you are not in the blinds, then letting the poster in for free is almost always wrong. Even without the poster this is frequently a raise (and if not then is almost always a fold). With the poster, even more so.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may well be a problem for me. I don't have it handy, but I think SSHE says call, not raise with KJo in middle position.

Granted, I normally do raise when posters come in. However, I was familiar with this poster. Also, I was worried about those still to act. I'm in MP2. MP3 was Tight/Passive. The CO (poster) was a TAG, the Button was a TAG, and the SB was a TAG. I had taken a few bad beatings from being in front of the Button and SB, so I may have been playing gunshy here.

Octopus · #8 11-14-2005, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First things first. Limping here is a significant error. If there is a poster and you are not in the blinds, then letting the poster in for free is almost always wrong. Even without the poster this is frequently a raise (and if not then is almost always a fold). With the poster, even more so.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may well be a problem for me. I don't have it handy, but I think SSHE says call, not raise with KJo in middle position.

Granted, I normally do raise when posters come in. However, I was familiar with this poster. Also, I was worried about those still to act. I'm in MP2. MP3 was Tight/Passive. The CO (poster) was a TAG, the Button was a TAG, and the SB was a TAG. I had taken a few bad beatings from being in front of the Button and SB, so I may have been playing gunshy here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am certain that SSH says to call with KJo in any unraised pot. SSH's pre-flop charts say a lot of things which are wrong in some situations (as SSH itself points out). Playing with a poster definitely qualifies.

Limping this against SSHs mythical table of loose passives is fine (although so is raising, depending on the players). But you have a bunch of TAGs behind you; why do you want to play a multi-handed pot with TAGs with KJo? With that hand, I want to play small fields with passive opponents, not large fields with aggressive ones. If I am worried about the TAGs behind me, I may shy away from KJo in MP, but if I am playing it, I am raising it.

Nikademus · #9 11-14-2005, 03:56 PM

Thanks. This is the kind of advice that I'm looking for to correct my play. Worrying about their actions, I made the wrong pre-flop play.

For the record, I checked the river.

Results in white below: 
SB has Jh Td (two pair, jacks and fours).
UTG+1 has Kc Tc (one pair, fours).
EP has 2s 2d (two pair, fours and twos).
Hero has Kd Jc (two pair, jacks and fours).
Outcome: Hero wins 9 BB.

HouseCalls · #10 11-14-2005, 04:16 PM

*grunch*
I like your hand as played. On the river you are up against two players in a situation where it is hard to know what they have because all they have done is call. I think the key here is reads. The more of a calling station the more likely you can bet for value (even against three players). When your opponents are trickier or more solid your bet has almost zero expectation. Against a solid player if you bet and he has nothing he folds. If you bet and he has a hand he calls and you lose. If he will call only when you lose the expectation is zero. Its even worse aginst a tricky player who might check raise and cost you two bets if you are behind.
In this case against two players with fairly solid stats I would check behind.
(if all opponents had stats like EP I might bet for value even against three players)