Suited Aces in limit holdem

[binions]

Many poker books treat anything below ATs as Axs, implying that A9s is interchangeable with A2s.

Looking at the Pokerroom stats, it appears that A9s is: stronger than the suited aces below it, profitable UTG, and about the same EV as 77.

A8-A7s and A5-A4s are similar in EV to each other (and 66), and all apear to be profitable in early position.

A6s and A3-A2s appear to be the runts of the litter, marginally profitable and only in middle to late position.

http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/pairStats.php

[PJM1206]

I really dont know about your poker book but I like that picture you have

i like those pokerroom stats, but i'm not sure what to make of them.

i too wouldn't mind limping UTG with A9s in a soft loose=passive game.. you have to remember though if an ace hits and a someone gets aggressive, you might be beat right there.

you are playing A9s for two pair, 3 of kind or especially flush.

[AaronBrown]

Pokerroom tells you what the hands are worth as actually played, which is not necessarily how they should be played.

For flush purposes, the rank of the kicker doesn't matter, the Ace high will always win.

For straight purposes, a kicker of 2 to 5 and 10 to K can make a straight with three specific cards on the board. So these are more valuable than kickers of 6 to 9. Otherwise the kicker doesn't matter much. Four card straights on the board are not common, and when they happen a 9 is only a little more valuable than a 6.

If you pair the Ace, the kicker matters if someone else holds Ax. However, even then it's often the case that the board has enough high cards or pairs that you don't use a kicker of 9 or lower.

Only if you pair only the kicker does it make a big difference. But even here, it may not make much difference because you're unlikely to win the hand if you only pair the kicker.

Obviously A9s is more valuable than A6s, and A5s than A2s, but I don't think it makes as much difference as the Pokerroom statitics suggest.

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]

For straight purposes, a kicker of 2 to 5 and 10 to K can make a straight with three specific cards on the board. So these are more valuable than kickers of 6 to 9. Otherwise the kicker doesn't matter much.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think there is a "straight" reason A5 and A4 are ahead of A2 (and A6) on the Pokerroom stats.

For A5 to make a straight, there has to be 234 on the board. For it to lose to a bigger straight, then 65 needs to be out. But A5 blocks one of the 5s.

Same for A4, which needs 235 and blocks one of the 4s thereby limiting the chance of 64 being out.

But take A2, which needs 345 for a straight. Now, it can lose to 62, but also 67. A2 doesnt block any 67 possibility.

If you read SS1, Bobby Baldwin in the limit holdem chapter professed a preference of A5-A2 over A9-A6 simply because of the straight possibilities.

I think he is wrong re: A9-A7 as kicker value is a factor too.

But his observation probably holds re: A5-A4 being more valuable than A6. There isn't much kicker difference, and the straight difference tips the scales.

[AaronBrown]

[ QUOTE ]
For A5 to make a straight, there has to be 234 on the board. For it to lose to a bigger straight, then 65 needs to be out. But A5 blocks one of the 5s.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree in principle, but look at the numbers. It only matters if three specific ranks come up on the board, that happens 2.5% of the time; then one opponent has to be holding two specific ranks, that will happen about 14% of the time with 9 other players. So you have to play the hand 258 times for it to come up once.

Then, the guy holding 6-5 has to stay in to showdown. No only will he almost always fold preflop, but he will probably unless the 3 and 4 show up on the flop. And you'll fold a lot of times as well. Your suited A2 or A5 is not a good starting hand, and unless you flop two suited cards or an Ace, you're folding.

And even then, the outstanding 5 in your hand only cuts the probability of another player having a higher straight by 25%. And even if that happens, it might not matter if someone has a flush or full house.

So if you always play suited A5 over suited A2, you might win one more hand in your lifetime due to straights. That's a much smaller effect than, say, the mood of the table or a small tell you picked up, or a strategic situation in a tournament. You have to be on a razor edge over whether or not to call preflop in order to make your decision on this.

[UATrewqaz]

A9 is far superior to A2 (i'm gonna paraphrase SSHE).

A 9 kicker will sometimes be good, a 2 will never be.

A pair of 9's will win every now and again, a pair of 2's almost never will.

The straight making possibilities of A2-A5 fall short of these other pluses (A5 is marginally better than A6 though).

[AaronBrown]

[ QUOTE ]
A9 is far superior to A2 (i'm gonna paraphrase SSHE).

A 9 kicker will sometimes be good, a 2 will never be.

A pair of 9's will win every now and again, a pair of 2's almost never will.

The straight making possibilities of A2-A5 fall short of these other pluses (A5 is marginally better than A6 though).

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see the logic of this. An Ace with a 2, 3, 4 or 5 will form a straight about 4% of the time. When it does you can win big.

For a 9 kicker to make a difference, you have to be up against an Ace with a lower card than 9. Assuming that you have a pair of Aces or better (otherwise some other hand is likely to be best), you also need two of the other board cards to be below 9 and not pair with the other player or form a pair. That will happen less than 3% of the time, and you won't win much because (a) you won't be sure of winning holding a pair of Aces with 9 kicker and (b) the other player will be even less confident. Even that assumes that people play every Ax to showdown, and a pair of Aces never gets beaten on with an unpaired board.

A pair of 9's may win once in a while, but if you bet a pair of 9's to showdown you'll lose a lot more than you win. So you'll fold this hand.

[winky51]

I loooove that picture. Heres another one of her.
http://www.wowfunny.com/pic.shtml?3804.jpg

Anyways to the subject at hand.

Axs. The reason why it looks good on paper to player from EP or MP is because vs many players it has good equity and can be folded easily to action.

Now take A6s to A2s. weak players play all and any aces. Some do not raises with A9s-AJo because they play weak. The lower Axs are at a disadvange to other aces because of their kicker. Sure they make a straight, sere they can make the flush, but that does not compensate for kicker wars. You are much more likely to be facing a weak player with an ace on a flop then the chance of flopping a draw.

4% to hit a straight draw on the flop. So what look at the numbers here.
http://www.texasholdempoker-stats.co...overcards.html
A9s vs A5s-A2s There is a 19% chance that if you flop a 9 there won't be overs. Thats much better than 4% for the straight DRAW only.

Also since no one raised or reraised and weak players called if they have an ace there is quite a good chance your kicker is king. They would notmally reraise with AK only. Call with AQ or below. So now you have 3 overs, 1 tie, and 8 lower kickers to content with. I'll take that over A5s anyday.

A7s is where I draw the line. Your kicker is below average here and you have to play it very careful. in 3/6 I will raise this hand 1st in in the last 50% of the table. if 5 fold in a 10 handed game I raise. But I play it careful. I would much rather have a A9s or A8s for the kicker.

A5s to A2s is a hand you play in position or in the blinds cheap. You are looking for the draws. Cheap hand that can make 2 draws. If an ace flops I check. Lots of people in the pot and someone bets early I fold unless I have backdoors, guts, or can read the player knowing I can hit 2 pair safely and have pot odds. Some shmuck bets on the button I raise to get it headsup and increase my chances to win.

My PT shows most Axs as losers unless you hit the draws which are small. Do you want to call down with A5s OOP just because you have an ace? No.

Kicker is MUCH more important than making that straight when there are few people in the pot. Even in a large pot its important.

A5s and A6s are even in terms of value because of the str8 draw.

Also note this. Anyone with 2 paint is only 40% to you before the flop if you come in early with Axs and he has position. That almost makes the hands even in my book.

Now lets say Master Fish X limps in from MP2 and you have Axs on the button. Thats a different story. Now I raise. Whats this guy limping with? He's a fish he could have 2 pair, a suited connector, maybe an ace but its much less likely. Also whats he going to do when the flop misses him if he has no pair and no draw with his Axo?

Most of the hands he is limping is less than an Axs and you have position. Thats makes a world of difference to OOP with Axs and someone behind. It can be a 2-3 small bet difference by the river.

Now if you are in a passice loose game like 5+ to the flop calling all raises then limping in with Axs just for the flush draw is golden from any position. In these games players pay you off no matter what they have. Their only power is that they are bluff proof calling down with K high "just in case your bluffing". I have ram and jammed the pot on the flop when it was obvously dangerous and I was sure another player flopped a straight. I had a nut flush draw. I still had 6 other players calling a CAPped flop. 6:1 to hit the nut flush for a 3:1 shot, worst case 4:1 because some other shmoe had a small flush.

In 3/6 though there is no way you can play Axs small unless you are in cheap with a ton of callers in an unraised pot, in the BB with odds in a raised pot, or in position vs a weak limper (did I hear raise?). Kicker is the most important thing with the ace. My stats and many other players prove it. Better kicker more $$$ that simple.

http://www.texasholdempoker-stats.co...e_any_axo.html