Rules of thumb for buy-in, bankrolls, etc.

I'd like some of you sharks and old timers to look over my numbers. I want to work out some rules of thumb for myself.

Say I'm playing 5-10 limit hold'em.

I understanding is that you want to buy in at a table with 25x the big bet. In the case of a 5-10 game, that would be $250.00 (or $2.50 in a .05-.10 game). This way, you can absorb a bad beat or two and still have enough money to play your way back into the black.

I also understand that the rule of thumb for total bankroll is 300x the big bet. Again, in a 5-10 game, that would be $3000.00 total bankroll (or $30.00 in a .05-.10 game). This is so you can absorb those inevitable streaks where you finish in the red several days in a row.

Are these assumptions correct? Should I buy in with closer to 50x the big bet? Is $3000.00 a big enough bank roll for playing 5-10 limit hold'em?

Now, what I'm really wondering about is profit taking at the table. When do you "take the money and run?"

Everything I've read so far says keep playing so long as you can still play your top game. Examples of players playing for 24-72 hours or even 96 hours straight are then given.

Personally, I think that's nuts. IMNSHO, if you play for more than 14 or 18 hours in a session then you seek professional help. I constantly remind myself that I'm playing poker for the money, not for the action.

If 8 hours of back-breaking work a day is enough for my former boss ol' Mr Grinchly, then it seems to me that 6-8 hours of play a day is enough for someone trying to make a living playing poker.

So if I'm playing 5-10 limit hold'em and I sit down with $250.00, when should I get up, cash in and go home for the day?

If I made $100.00 profit (after rake and toke) then that would be 40% return on my initial $250 buy in. Any business manager will tell you that 40% return on an investment is AWESOME and you should be happy with it. I kind of lean that way myself.

But the fact of the matter is at a large, loose table I could fold and fold for an hour, blind down to $200.00, then in my first hour of play hit one monster hand for $200.00. Even after the rake and a generous toke I'll have made back my blinds and be at the 40% profit mark. In one hand. After just one hour of play.

So it suddenly doesn't seem compleatly unreasonable for someone to buy in with $250.00 and double his money in a single 6-8 hour session. Except that the expectation of doubleing you money every day is a perfect example of the "sucker mentality" that keeps people playing poker for 36 hours with money they can't afford to loose.

So that leads me back to just playing for $100.00 profit a day. That really doesn't sound like much. And when you concider it as profit off your total working capital of $3000.00, it actually comes out to be just over 3% profit per day. Doesn't sound like much at all.

However, when you spread that over five days of play a week, four weeks a month (20 days a month of play), and account for 5 days a month where you'll have several bad beats and end up in the red those day, that's $1500.00 profit for the month off your total working capital, or 50% profit. Monthly.

I'd like some of you sharks and old timers to look over my numbers. Do they make sense to you?

[pzhon]

You frequently compare apples and oranges. That is a way to make or rationalize bad decisions.

If you play with the same advantage over your opponents at all times, any stop-loss or stop-win system you make that decreases the hours you play will decrease your expected profit.

Suppose you expect to win $100/day. That comes from winning much more than $100 on some days, and winning much less or losing on other days. Then you decide that you will quit when you hit $100. What will happen? You have given up the times you win $400 in a day. On many days, you will hit $100 and quit. On other days, you will never reach $100. On some days, you will lose. Because of your new system, you will average less than $100.

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So it suddenly doesn't seem compleatly unreasonable for someone to buy in with $250.00 and double his money in a single 6-8 hour session. Except that the expectation of doubleing you money every day is a perfect example of the "sucker mentality" that keeps people playing poker for 36 hours with money they can't afford to loose.

So that leads me back to just playing for $100.00 profit a day. That really doesn't sound like much. And when you concider it as profit off your total working capital of $3000.00, it actually comes out to be just over 3% profit per day. Doesn't sound like much at all.

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So to expect to double to 500 is bad thinking, but to try for 100 profit is not? I still prefer the thought that if you are playing at a good table, and making the correct decisions you stay as long as you are comfortable. You'll know its time to leave when you start making the wrong choices. Personally, up or down, if I am still making the +ev decisions at a loose, easy table, I am going to stay.

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You frequently compare apples and oranges. That is a way to make or rationalize bad decisions.

If you play with the same advantage over your opponents at all times, any stop-loss or stop-win system you make that decreases the hours you play will decrease your expected profit.

Suppose you expect to win $100/day. That comes from winning much more than $100 on some days, and winning much less or losing on other days. Then you decide that you will quit when you hit $100. What will happen? You have given up the times you win $400 in a day. On many days, you will hit $100 and quit. On other days, you will never reach $100. On some days, you will lose. Because of your new system, you will average less than $100.

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So if I want to average $100.00 per day, then I'm going to have to regularly excede 100.00 per day.

Makes perfect sense. Thanks. That's the best explanation I could have asked for.

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So if I want to average $100.00 per day, then I'm going to have to regularly excede 100.00 per day.


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Yes, that's true, but I think that what he was trying to say was that by saying "I'll leave the table when I'm up $100," you will miss out on a lot potential upside. You're talking about playing 5/10....when you are up 10BB you're going to leave. That's one good pot. If you win the first hand and make your goal, are you going to leave? What if the game is really juicy or you are having a hot run of cards(how much will you miss out on!)? You may reach your goal in 10 minutes of play, but if you come in and start down, you could spend 10 hours and not make your $100...(in theory).

[Benoit]

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So if I want to average $100.00 per day, then I'm going to have to regularly excede 100.00 per day.


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Yes, that's true, but I think that what he was trying to say was that by saying "I'll leave the table when I'm up $100," you will miss out on a lot potential upside. You're talking about playing 5/10....when you are up 10BB you're going to leave. That's one good pot. If you win the first hand and make your goal, are you going to leave? What if the game is really juicy or you are having a hot run of cards(how much will you miss out on!)? You may reach your goal in 10 minutes of play, but if you come in and start down, you could spend 10 hours and not make your $100...(in theory).

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Yeah stay as long as the game is good and is within your scheduled time for the game. When I find a really loose game online, I will stay at that table, but win or lose I will be done in 2 or 3 hours since that's all I wanted to play.