quick poll -- 88 UTG+1

[Guruman]

I fold until I get a read. My cutoff is 99 usually anyway, because then we start getting in to the range where we'll at least be competetive with a reasonable range.

Ideally, I'd like to be able to win at least sometimes when an utg raiser pairs his low card. If he'll raise with A8o as the bottom of his range, now he can catch an 8 and I'll still be ok.

A8 is out of a lot of peoples UTG raise range though, so I cutoff at nines and realize that even then I'm usually behind the range.

Also, having a blind come along and then lead a J high flop would suck - and doesoccur.


I mean, how much does folding here give up really?
I think I'd rather move on and find a more clearly defined edge.

[Redd]

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I reraise 88 - against a table of total unknowns at 5/10 - because I suspect that my hand is better than the average hand UTG raised with in the first place.

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What sort of hand range do you put him on? Do you include 77? 66?

It seems a typical player wouldn't raise anything with an unpaired undercard in it here, and if we assume no lower pockets we're at best a coin flip against two overs, or at worst we're absolutely destroyed by a bigger pocket.

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At this unknown 5/10 table, I think utg could raise with: 66, 77, AK, AQ, AJ, A10, KQ, KJ, K10, QJ, QT, JTs, A8s. Some players will also raise with lower pairs, 109s, 98s, and any Axs, but they are probably in the minority.

I don't know if you're correct about the coin flip situation. Part of the equation is that I expect the unknown player will fold occasionally on the flop, and usually on the turn without help.

If villain has something like KT, I think there's a decent chance he may actually fold on the flop. So is KJ really a coinflip against 88 if the action stops on the flop? What about if the action stops on the turn?

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The coinflip situation is definitely dependant on how well the player plays postflop; my understanding is that each of your preflop equities are ~50%. But if we can cause him to make an unprofitable fold, this would shift things in our favor.

Conversely, if he can cause us to make an unprofitable call then things shift in his favor. This comes back to Stellarwind's mention of how it's harder for us to get away from our hand when he improves than it is for him to let go UI on the turn (actually resulting in implied odds in his favor).

[Wynton]

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The coinflip situation is definitely dependant on how well the player plays postflop; my understanding is that each of your preflop equities are ~50%. But if we can cause him to make an unprofitable fold, this would shift things in our favor.

Conversely, if he can cause us to make an unprofitable call then things shift in his favor. This comes back to Stellarwind's mention of how it's harder for us to get away from our hand when he improves than it is for him to let go UI on the turn (actually resulting in implied odds in his favor).

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I don't think the focus should be on whether we are forcing our opponent to make a mistake. If that was our only concern, you could probably even make an argument for cold-calling; but cold-calling with 88 at an unknown table would clearly be wrong, because we have no idea how many opponents we'd end up facing, or whether we'd face a reraise from a later player.

Thus, the choice here is between raise or fold, in my view. If we think our hand is a favorite against the average hand of the unknown utg, we should raise, notwithstanding that our opponent might have an easy time making a decision on the flop or turn.

One factor some have touched on implicitly is how we like to begin at an unknown table. Sometimes, I will be overly tight at the outset, just in order to get some information before making borderline moves. Sometimes, I'm in a different mood, and feel like beginning with an overly aggressive image. I do not think that either approach - during your first orbit - is inherently superior.

[oxymoron]

It's really close and for me it is table dependant. Against an unknown table (it's important how not only the UTG plays but the table as a whole) I will fold. If I know that the player raises lose or plays bad post flop and I can get it HU I'll raise.

[oxymoron]

I should also add that my decision is based on acting right after the UTG raiser. If UTG raises, everyone folds, and I'm on the button I raise more liberally even against unknowns.

[danzasmack]

Wow at a tight table I raise as low as 55.

88 is auto raise for me in almost any position.

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Wow at a tight table I raise as low as 55.

88 is auto raise for me in almost any position.

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We are talking about playing behind an UTG raise. I admit, I chose 3-bet, not realizing it's so close..