Poorly Played?

[Kevin J]

Sorry for the rambling post. Too lazy to reorganize it.

I don't think this is ramble at all. In fact, you eloquently put into words exactly what goes through my mind at times. You know... When you're worried that an aggressive opponent is thinking what you're thinking he's thinking... Sometimes it's easier to wrestle control by actually playing meeker on an earlier street than you otherwise might. I THINK this is what you're saying... [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Boris]

IMO, you should've check-raised on the turn. No one ever believes you when you check-raise the flop, especially with two broadway cards and two of a suit on the flop. Check-raising on the turn has much higher probability of making your opponent fold. Plus, if your opponent gives you a free card on the turn then you've already outplayed him. You don't have s**t for a hand (except for a big draw) and a free card gives you another opportunity to bluff your opponent on the river.

[Kevin J]

I'm not such a big fan of checkraising here unless your opponent will fold ace high in this spot a lot of the time, which I doubt he will.

I agree and also doubt he'd fold ace-high. But I got a hand that's going to the river regardless, and check/raising the flop might convince him to fold some of his worse hands on the turn. IMO-

[Kevin J]

I agree that betting out is also an option and that 3-betting (if raised) can be a deceptive and profitable way to play it. But like I pointed out in my post... This guy was skilled and aggressive. If I'm wrong, and/or miss my draw, it was sure to get expensive. I was getting tortured for most of the session and was in no mood to go to war with this guy. I actually thought check/raising might've been the least expensive way to play it. Also, I like to mix it up. Thanks for your thoughts.

[Boris]

Gee, I think I pretty much totally disagree with you here. I think the bad guy would be hard pressed to call a turn check-raise and a river bet with any queen or pocket pair. Even if you do get busted trying a semi-bluff check raise, it doesn't really cost you that much. Assuming you are lucky enough to pick up a real hand, you will get paid more often on later hands. You will also get more free cards on later hands.

I think playing passively and trying to suck out is also an OK way to play the hand. You just have to go with your read. But if you are going to put on a move on the guy then you might as well play it like you mean it.

[skp]

Actually, I don't think we disagree as much as it might seem. All I am saying is that routinely planning to checkraise on the turn when you flop a straight draw should not be your default play. I think you'll agree with that.

On this hand, Kevin had checkraised the flop and the other guy called. Kevin then picks up a flush draw to go with his straight draw but the board pairs. Trying for another checkraise here is not very good IMO because the guy might just check back and then call you with Ace high on the river i.e. checking the turn may deprive you of the opportunity to see him fold. I appreciate what you said elsewhere about how having the action checked through can be a boon because Kevin has nothing for a hand. But that's only half the story. In most situations, Kevin has the playing advantage on the turn given the flop action. Checking is bad not because you can give a free card in the traditional sense but because you take the foot off the gas when you have an opportunity to take the pot with a simple bet.

[gaylord focker]

In a heads up situation like this, I think you have to make an attempt to win the pot on the turn. I would have played it as you did, and as someone else said, I suppose you could have check raised if you felt he was weak and that he would bet. Considering he is steaming its quite possible he raises from cutoff with any ace, and you need to be able to fold that hand if he missed the flop.

[Boris]

Oh right. Given that you check-raise the flop you should lead on the turn. I agree. I was coming at it from the angle of either check-raising on flop or check-raising on the turn.

[Kevin J]

Boris-

Just for the heck of it.. Let's assume I DID check/raise the turn, and he now makes it $120 with his trip eights. How do you proceed from here? Fold??!! (I know those who would given the paired board and drawing heads-up)... Call and then check the river? Or, Call and then bet the river? (and then call if raised again?)

[MichaelD]

Kevin,

I know you are a very good player. I also have read all the responses here so my response may, but I don't think so, be a bit tainted. I wil probably get flamed but here is my opinion.

Pre-Flop - Definitely call - Given the way you describe this player, I cannot possibly fathom why you would want to three-bet pre-flop and attempt to isolate heads up with the worst position at the table and a hand of J high - I guess I would ask myself what he is raising with that my J high hand is worthy of three-betting with - but that is just me.

Flop - Bet and call if raised - again personally I do not like check-raising a player who you describe "capable of outplaying me on my best day" with a hand of J high and most likely 8 clean outs.

Turn - Either betting, checkraising, or check calling are all viable option depending on your read.

River - Depends on your turn play If you bet the turn, I would checkraise the river. If you check/call the turn, I would bet, then three bet the river when raised. If you checkraise the turn and then get re-raised, I would again check-raise the river and 4 bet if he three bets me. If I am gonna draw to the hand heads up, then I sure as heck am not going to slow down when I get there.

Given the entire situation you describe, I have some concern with being overagressive or what I would term as seriously overplaying with nothing more than a drawing hand - especially without position - and against what you describe as a solid player (granted who may or may not be on tilt).
From my experience, very few solid players - tilted or not -who have raised pre-flop - are going to fold a hand with a board with two face cards on it.

From the responses, it sounds like I am in the minority and that I would be the only here who did not just keep on raising and raising and then check-raising until I got there. Maybe I am missing something.

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

PS - I figure I had better cover this before I get flamed by those of you are thinking I am weak passive as a player because of the way I describe my thinking regarding this hand. While it is definitely possible I am weak/passive as a player, I really do not believe this is the case.