Controversy over symbols and racism .

[thatpfunk]

jesus christ wacki,
you responded to my post that stated less than 5% of the people are flying the confederate flag because they they are proud that the southern people stood up for the rights of the states versus a federal govt that was acting unjustly and inhibiting on their states' freedom.

and you respond with a post about whether people think the flag is racist or not. these two points have little to do with each other. my point is that they are NOT flying the flag for the correct "patriotic" reasons. WTF are you addressing your poll to me for?

ill be looking forward to your apology for all your snide comments.

Regarding Davis: As time passed, many elements changed, and so did the players. U.S. attorneys general came and went (three different men were involved in the Davis case). Andrew Johnson was impeached and nearly convicted. And the 14th Amendment was passed and ratified. Johnson began to fear that if Davis were tried and acquitted--a very real possibility with a Virginia jury--he (Johnson) would be impeached again and removed from office. For a variety of reasons, no significant action was taken until after the 1868 election.
Salmon P. Chase

In an unusual twist, Chase made known to Davis' attorneys, a distinguished group of northern and southern litigators, his opinion that the third section of the 14th Amendment nullified the indictment against Davis. His contention was that by stripping the right to vote from high Confederate officials, a punishment for treasonable activities had been legislated, so Davis could not be punished again for the same crime. Davis' friends reminded his lawyers that Davis (who was in Europe and out of telegraphic range) wanted a trial because he saw it as an opportunity to vindicate both himself and the actions of the Confederacy, i.e. the constitutional right to secede. Davis' lawyers, however, pointed out that Davis' life was at stake, and there was a general agreement that they could not pass up the opportunity to arrange what they believed to be an honorable settlement. One of the attorneys later wrote Davis that the defense team also felt that if they could establish a precedent based on the 14th Amendment, it would lift the threat of prosecution for other Confederate leaders as well.

On November 30, 1868, Davis' lawyers filed a motion requiring that the government attorneys show cause why the indictment (the latest of at least four indictments which had been handed down with the same charge--another long story) should not be quashed. A hearing on the motion was held before Chase and Underwood on December 3-4, and on the 5th they announced their finding. The vote was split--Chase favoring laying aside the indictment, and Underwood, who had overseen the grand juries responsible for the indictment, wanting the case to be tried. Chase's anger with Underwood was obvious, and he stated for the record why he believed the 14th Amendment exempted Davis from further prosecution.

The certificate of division between Chase and Underwood was forwarded to the Supreme Court, and the indictment technically remained pending, but there would be no more action taken. It was clear that Chase would favor overturning a guilty verdict, making the government hesitant to proceed. The Davis case remained on the circuit court docket for February 15, 1869, but the government indicated at that time that it would not prosecute (nolle prosequi). The indictment was, therefore, dismissed, as were indictments against thirty-seven other ex-Confederates, including Robert E. Lee. Davis' lawyers contacted the Justice Department to make sure that other indictments against him in Washington and Tennessee were not going to be prosecuted.
---
This has absolutely nothing to do with my question.

[ChipWrecked]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what poster I made an ad hominem attack on.



[/ QUOTE ]

"What a jackass"

Attack the post, not the poster.

Nothing personal to you, with the Boston theme I was only echoing the words of a famous Jew (I paraphrase): "Before you point out the speck in your neighbor's eye, check out the log in your own."

The South and Southerners are the last 'group' in this country it's PC to take a public [censored] on.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

"What a jackass"

Attack the post, not the poster.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was obviously calling Barry Bonds the jackass.

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

"What a jackass"

Attack the post, not the poster.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was obviously calling Barry Bonds the jackass.

[/ QUOTE ]
ty

[ChipWrecked]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

"What a jackass"

Attack the post, not the poster.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was obviously calling Barry Bonds the jackass.

[/ QUOTE ]
ty

[/ QUOTE ]

mea culpa.

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

"What a jackass"

Attack the post, not the poster.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was obviously calling Barry Bonds the jackass.

[/ QUOTE ]
ty

[/ QUOTE ]

mea culpa.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's cool

[RedBean]

[ QUOTE ]
If you wouldn't mind explaining which state right, besides the right to slavery, irked the South enough to secede?


[/ QUOTE ]

To think that slavery was the reason for the Civil War is uninformed.

The only part it played in the war as a political gesture by the North two years into the war to apply pressure on the wavering confederate states, by the Union decreeing free all slaves in the seceeded territories, but still maintained slavery as allowable in Union territory.

Consider that the Emancipation Proclamation, widely considered as the "freeing of slaves" went into effect in 1863, a full two years after the war began.

How can someone think the Civil War was fought over slavery, when it didn't become a factor until two years after the start, and when the North affirmed slavery in loyal states and only called for the freedom of slaves in those states that seceeded?

That's right, its one little tidbit you don't hear the Union sympathizers talk much about, that the Emancipation Proclamation called for the freedom of slaves in the Confederate States only, and did not apply to those states who were still loyal to the Union.

Slavery was allowed and continued in Northern states throughout and even after the war ended, which is about as proof positive to any educated person that the war was NOT a black and white fight over slavery.

To think the North fought the South to free slaves and abolish slavery is a simplistic and incorrect view.

"We show our sympathy with slavery by emancipating slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free." - Secretary of State William Steward, 1863

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]

ill be looking forward to your apology for all your snide comments.

[/ QUOTE ]

The following in bold had me confused.

[ QUOTE ]
(and as I stated before, less than 5% of Confederate flag-flyers are doing so to celebrate their willingness to do what is correct and fight for states rights)

[/ QUOTE ]

If I misinterpreted that I apologize, but at the time that sure as hell seemed like it meant something else. To be honest, it still does seem like it means something else, but I will recant one of my snide comments.

[thatpfunk]

my estimate had nothing to do with racism, it had to do with the reasoning behind people flying the flag.

if you are an intelligent, informed individual who flies the confederate flag because you believe that it was a proud moment in your regions history because they were standing up to opressors who had no right to try to take away a states' agreed upon rights then I can't really complain. you are celebrating doing what you thought was a correct decision at the time (seceding) and are making a statement regarding the preservation of states rights vs a power hungry federal govt.

i can't object to someone with that stance and belief system, regardless of my personal beliefs. i have to respect a well thought out support of states' rights.

however, i believe that 5% (or less) of the people who are flying that flag today have gone through that line of thinking and come to this conclusion. as I said, it is an estimate simply based on common sense and the lack of informed individuals in our society today.

does that make more sense?

[odellthurman]

Thatpfunk/Wacki/Evan - Are you from the South or live in the South now? Is the Confederate flag shown outside of the South?

My observations of that flag have been limited to the South. I don't recall ever seeing it outside of a Southern state. I have lived in Georgia my entire life (36 years). I haven't done any polling, but the idea that virtually all of the use of the Confederate flag in the South is not racist is laugh out loud ridiculous to me.