Internet Texas Hold'em: Poker Concepts II (pg 51-72)

[Jim Brier]

Hi Everybody!

A few months ago a friend showed me Mr. Hilger's book, "Internet Texas Hold'em". I did not actually sit down and read it in detail, but I was stunned at how similar it looked to "Middle Limit Holdem Poker" by Bob Ciaffone and me. While there had been many books written on limit hold'em, the format and teaching approach we utilized were unique at the time it was published in 2002. I know this to be true because I had read most of the major books on hold'em that were currently available.

But "Internet Texas Hold'em" looked almost identical to our book in terms of the way Hilger described the game, the specific action taken on each hand, and the manner in which the answer was explained. While he does mention our book in passing as "Recommended Reading," he never pointed out that he was utilizing our teaching technique, with its emphasis on practical examples centered around a specific idea, as the basis for his book. Much of the narrative and detailed answers emphasize the same considerations we emphasized in our book like the number of opponents, the texture of the board, and so forth. Most importantly, some of the hands he described looked very similar to the ones we described.

I talked to Bob Ciaffone a month ago about this book. Bob has been very busy and has not had a chance to look at "Internet Texas Hold'em". I doubt that he will be able to find the time in the near future since he is busy with other projects.

In closing, I am not accusing anyone of plagiarism or copyright infringement. I have no problem with other authors utilizing our ideas and approaches. But I do feel that credit should be given where credit is due.

Regards,

Jim Brier.

[Czech_Razor]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't object to this book being discussed here. But I did want it known that when I said it had lifted much information directly from other sources that I was accurate with my comments.

[/ QUOTE ]

So why not raise it in a separate thread instead of highjacking the book discussion thread? [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[banditdad]

[ QUOTE ]
While there had been many books written on limit hold'em, the format and teaching approach we utilized were unique at the time it was published in 2002.

...he never pointed out that he was utilizing our teaching technique, with its emphasis on practical examples centered around a specific idea, as the basis for his book. Much of the narrative and detailed answers emphasize the same considerations we emphasized in our book like the number of opponents, the texture of the board, and so forth. Most importantly, some of the hands he described looked very similar to the ones we described.
Regards,

Jim Brier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow!!! You invented that teaching technique? I'll have to hop in my wayback machine and inform my college professors that they are stealing a technique from the future. How cool is that? They must all have had ESP or something.

Or maybe you were influenced by the dozens of chess & bridge books that use a similar technique? Or how about the bridge column in the LA Times that uses the same technique?

Or just maybe this particular teaching methodology is the best one for getting an idea across in a clear, concise, and understandable manner? Maybe a number of independent people can come to the same logical conclusion? It happens all the time.

Some of the hands look similar? I would think so. If you're trying to tecah someone you use examples that might have commonality with others. How many possible valid hand combinations are there? I would be surprised if ALL the books that show hand examples didn't have a certain likeness.

I'm sure I'll get flamed down by the 2+2 party loyalists for this post, but really c'mon. Mason may or may not have a valid concern, I really don't know, but claiming that you invented a specific teaching technique? That's absurd.

[theredwave]

Good argument Bantitdad.

I really think we need to get back to reviewing the book or one of the Wisconsin boys needs to post if the book club review of ITH is still going or if it has officially been derailed.

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
I really think we need to get back to reviewing the book or one of the Wisconsin boys needs to post if the book club review of ITH is still going or if it has officially been derailed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what to tell you. Maybe try PMing UWMadtown? I don't own this book so I would be a terrible discussion leader for this one, which is why I passed it off to him. I'd like to see it continued for you guys though so hopefully talk him into continuing it or if one of you wants to take over in his place and can lead a solid discussion feel free. If you want I can give you a few pointers on how to get started. I'd hate to see this fall apart for those of you who want this group.

[Billy Zee]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Everybody!

A few months ago a friend showed me Mr. Hilger's book, "Internet Texas Hold'em". I did not actually sit down and read it in detail, but I was stunned at how similar it looked to "Middle Limit Holdem by Bob Ciaffone and me. .....
I talked to Bob Ciaffone a month ago about this book. ....


[/ QUOTE ]



It sure would be nice to stay in the here and now for awhile. Your not accusing anyone of anything ... but your ARE accusing someone of something.( " A Rose by any other name ..." ) Matthew Hilger to be exact. This entire thread was to be a discussion of ITH, a learning experience for those of us who need it , NOT a cheap advertising venue for others more notable work.
There are enough books out on the subject now, that I just possibly can get by WITHOUT reading any of yours. I think a BLACKLIST may be in order.

And in case it isn't clear by my post ... I am sick and tired of the inuendo and accusations ... [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[Twitch1977]

No point in trying to continue, Mason has indirectly made it pretty clear that he will not allow any sort of discussion on this book to continue in peace.

I feel bad for Mr. Hilger, he comes here to help us out getting the most out of his book and he gets nothing but attacked. Extremely rude. But such is life on the internet.

T

[Mason Malmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel bad for Mr. Hilger

[/ QUOTE ]

I want you to know that I feel bad for him too. But I also want you to know that when he restores his personal credibility by going through his book and putting the apprpriate references in all the spots where he took lots of information from other sources (without giving any credit), I'll cease feeling so bad for him.

MM

Best wishes,
Mason

[Fat Bottomed Girls]

[ QUOTE ]
No point in trying to continue, Mason has indirectly made it pretty clear that he will not allow any sort of discussion on this book to continue in peace.

I feel bad for Mr. Hilger, he comes here to help us out getting the most out of his book and he gets nothing but attacked. Extremely rude. But such is life on the internet.


[/ QUOTE ]


Mr. Hilger deserves to get attacked. He brought it on himself. That's what you get for stealing ideas from other people.

[littledave]

Mr. Malmuth,

You may be right or you may be wrong, I don't know and I don't care. Frankly, I doubt very much that more than a handful of us care.

What amazes me is that you don't seem to be aware of how bad your attitude is, or even care that you are alienating a lot of people.

And I can't believe that your colleagues, Mr. Sklansky and Mr. Miller (who is guilty to a certain extent himself), are not advising you of how you "sound" to the people that read your words, time after time.