If Bush Was A Liar On Iraq Then So Were the Libs

[Cyrus]

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Israel is a secular state with a secular government.

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There is no "official" state religion in Israel, but, as the Jewish state, Israel's de facto state religion is Judaism.

I trust we are not going to debate this.

(Note: Having a state religion, either de facto or de jure, is a different matter than religious tolerance. Israel gets very high marks for its tolerance of non-Judaic religions.)

" Saddam gave us no reason to doubt this, refusing to cooperate with U.N. weapons inspectors "

Must have been watching different news.. I thought it was the US who was not prepared to give the weapons inspectors more time, against the wishes of the UN.

Ah well. another history revision, I guess.

Regarding th OP: "If Bush Was A Liar On Iraq Then So Were the Libs"... YES!

[elscorcho768]

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But as far as the Middle East is concerned and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, yes, absolutely, the United States has followed, assisted and supported Israel in everything and every time.

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This right here is the crux of our debate. You said the above, Cyrus, and I showed how it was incorrect. Of course Israel acted in its own interest in many ways in these two examples I gave, but they still illustrate how your statement is incorrect. Let me again say that Israel acted in its best interest in the Yom Kippur War. But they were still pressurized heavily by the US gov't (see Kissinger's "Crisis") The Suez War further proves you wrong. I admitted when I was wrong about saying that Arab govt's openly called for the destruction of the US. Can you at least say you are wrong here?

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This is the point : Israel seems to oblige the U.S. but it does so ONLY when this is convenient for Israel! If you think that this amounts to succumbing to pressure, be my guest.

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Those bastards! I can't believe Israel would act in its own interests. Also, the Suez War was an instance where it wasn't in Israels best interest to withdraw but did so from US pressure.

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Please understand this : Israel's numero uno concern, militarily and politically, has been Egypt, not Jordan, not Libya, not Iraq, not Lebanon, not Saudi Arabia. Alright?

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I never said it wasn't. I do not deny what Israeli leaders said. You continue to miss my point. Lets just say that the USc was to pressure some other country to do something. Lets not include what the even was, who the other country was, or the motives of that country. Any logical person would agree that the US pressured that country. You said the US never did this to Israel. You said the US always followed Israel no matter what. I showed they didnt. If you could simply acknowledge this, then we could maybe see eye to eye on some other aspects.

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Debate it as much as you like and with whomever you like : I gave you the testimony of the survivors of the attack against the ship! Are you going to claim you know what happened better than the American shipmen who were there ?

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After Israeli airplanes fired on the USS LIberty, two torpedo boats approached. The Liberty then fired on the boats, which they had every right to do. Then torpedo boats then fired on the ship. I do not simply dismiss the testimony of the survivors, but I would not expect them to say anything but that it was deliberate since they lost many friends. However, an objective look at the tragedy along with 13 total commissions on the incident shows that it was an accident. Given that it was during the six day war, is it not possible that this was the case? Also what logical and supported reason is there for Israel to do this?

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A country that is based on principles such as Israel's, and a country with pretensions to "western values" and "democratic principles" at that, is an anachronism, a throw-back to the nationalism of the 19th century.

The world has moved. The Jews have been left behind. Moreover, through the actions of Israel in the last fifty years, the moral high ground enjoyed by the Jewish tribe has been lost. Israel wins the battle for hills, rivers and valleys and loses the battle for its soul.

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Israel was established as a Jewish state because of the need for a homeland and the survival of the jewish people. You seem to think that this shouldnt have happened. I want you to look up some of the more famous Israeli Supreme Court decisions. I think you might change your opinion that Israel does not act as a western country. Apparently, the Jews are not part of the civilized world, everyone. Cyrus just opened all our eyes. They are still barbarians living in the 18th century and we should thorw our support behing the muslims, who are living in the future!

[Cyrus]

Oh you like country music too, huh? Let's dance.

"Israel acted in its best interest in the Yom Kippur War. But they were still pressurized heavily by the US gov't."

What did I say different?

The US "pressurized" [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]. Israel's best interests coincided with what Washington wanted. And Washington knew that. And Jerusalem knew that. They both come out spit 'n shine! Whaht do you find impossible to understand exactly?

I did not say "Washington nevr presses Israel". I said that Washington will never pressure Israel to do something against Israel's interests! The AIPAC has quite a pit bull's hold on American policies and administrations to allow for anything different.

"The Suez War further proves you wrong."

No, the 1956 war actually proves my point! The Americans "pressurized" [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] Britain and France inn that war; Israel's "pressurization" was a collateral effect -- the first and only time that Israel was obliged to step back on account of Washington's orders. (You have some ways to catch up on yer History!)

"I do not simply dismiss the testimony of the survivors [of the USS Liberty] , but I would not expect them to say anything but that it was deliberate since they lost many friends."

Fair point. But the facts are on the survivorts' side. Why do you think there has never been a serious inverstigation (a total shame, this) by the United States? This doesn't just smell cover-up, it stinks to high heaven.

"An objective look at the tragedy along with 13 total commissions on the incident shows that it was an accident. Given that it was during the six day war, is it not possible that this was the case? Also what logical and supported reason is there for Israel to do this?

Israeli warplanes fired at the hapless ship USS Liberty not once or twice but repeatedly and from close range. The ship was no spy ship. She was not hiding her identity. On the contrary, it was flying her flags and showing off her colors for all to see. Especially so on account of the nearby war going on!

The USS Liberty survivors and whose who assist them in their efforts did not just whine and complain and cry black tears for the lost ones. They have assembled meticulously the sequence of events (link) whereby the war crime perpetrated on June 8, 1967 becomes blatantly obvious.

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...At approximately 0600 hours (all times local) on the morning of June 8, 1967 an Israeli maritime reconnaissance aircraft observer reported seeing "a US Navy cargo type ship," just outside the coverage of the Israeli coastal radar defense net, bearing the hull markings "GTR-5".
(Source : IDF History Report, Exhibit 2-678:
"The [Israeli maritime reconnaissance aircraft] patrol’s mission was to detect ship movements before vessels could enter coastal radar detection range.
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Meanwhile, the "Nord" plane which had been patrolling the sea had landed and [at 1050 hours local time] the observer was debriefed by Lt. Commander Pinchasi, a navy representative at [Israel] Air Command. The observer reported spotting the marking GTR-5 on the ship’s side. Lt. Commander Pinchasi checked the marking in a "Janes" manual and learned that the reference was to an intelligence ship named "Liberty".")

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"Israel was established as a Jewish state because of the need for a homeland and the survival of the jewish people."

At some point in time, Israelis have to acknowledge that what for them was a historical moment of salvation and national joy, was also a catastrophe for the local inhabitants of the place. Until now, Israel has acted like an apartheid state, by denying the self-proclaimed national identity of those locals, denying them basic rights in the place who live (for those who still live in Israel), denying to those who left the right to return home, denying that these people even exist! Israel has engaged in systematic acts of barbarity against the locals for five decades; it has also won all the wars it waged against its enemies; it stands, as it always stood more powerfully militarily than all the Arab front-line states combined!

There is nothing for Israel to fear except itself. It is a living anachronism among western democracies, a throwback to the nationalist, irredentist ideologies of the 19th century which predictably caused so much bloodshed in Europe for a hundred years.

Israel is winning its wars, small and big, and losing its Jewish soul.

And it's not just me saying this... link

[MMMMMM]

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There is nothing for Israel to fear except itself.

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And the myriad Arabs who wish to see it destroyed and every Jew slaughtered.

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It is a living anachronism among western democracies, a throwback to the nationalist, irredentist ideologies of the 19th century which predictably caused so much bloodshed in Europe for a hundred years.

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Lol. It's myriad Arab neighbors are many times more anachronistic throwbacks, and have many times the prejudice and supremacist attitudes (and laws).

If you're claiming that prejudice and supremacism often lead to bloodshed, you are right, but you are ignoring the fact that the Arab states are far more guilty of those things than is Israel. So if you're going to criticize Israel on that basis you ought to commensurately blame the Arab states as well--which would mean MORE, in this case.

It is amazing how a tiny state should draw more criticism for its policies, than do the vast surrounding states, which have policies, attitudes and laws far more worthy of criticism.

[BluffTHIS!]

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM,

Please don't muddy Cyrus' arguments with facts and logic.

[nicky g]

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MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM,

Please don't muddy Cyrus' arguments with facts and logic.

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I propose that the next person to make this infinitely unoriginal non-post be banned from the internet.

[Cyrus]

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Israel [fears] the myriad Arabs who wish to see it destroyed and every Jew slaughtered.

[/ QUOTE ] It is a well know fact that Israel has nothing to fear from either the front-line states or the whole Arab nation. Israel is stronger militarily than all the Arab states combined. Therefore, the security argument is dead at the starting gate.

But you knew this already.

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Its myriad Arab neighbors are many times more anachronistic throwbacks

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There is once crucial difference: I would not accept those Arab states as worthy of admittance in the family of western democracies. But Israel has pretensions that "it belongs". I say it is a hundred times more of an anachronism than British Royalty.

[BCPVP]

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MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM,

Please don't muddy Cyrus' arguments with facts and logic.

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I propose that the next person to make this infinitely unoriginal non-post be banned from the internet.

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I second this motion. (Not a shot at you bluffTHIS)

[BluffTHIS!]

Trite as my remark was, it was nonetheless very appropriate in this situation.