A card dealing fiasco

sonoftow · #1 02-10-2005, 04:05 PM

Here's a little story from my last visit to the cardroom.

I was dealt AJ suited
The board flopped 6 6 J
Turn was a 2
River brought out a K
The board cards were in a rainbow of suits and there was only one other player who stayed with me until the river. Our play had both of us being a bit cautious so neither of us capped early and heads up I bet out but I just called his raise fearing that he'd hit the King or was playing trips.
He did indeed turn over JK. It was a nice pot so I said something like "Nice river card." and watched the chips slide over his way.

Here's where things got interesting.

As he was starting to stack up the win the dealer gathered the cards and opened the shuffling machine in the table. To his amazement the deck in the machine had one card face up on the top. The palyer to his immediate left, then suddenly spoke up:

"Did anybody else just see two Jacks of diamonds in that last hand? Or was I just imagining it?"
Another player immediately confirmed that he'd seen it too. Neither I nor the winner of the hand had noticed it.
The dealer looked at the up card in the next deck and found that it was the wrong color on the back. That card matched the deck we had just played. He found an off color card in that last hand deck as well. You guessed it, a Jack of diamonds. By now of course the original deck is long put back together and all the chips from that hand are neatly stacked in my opponents piles. I had no recourse. No reprieve.

"Floor! A new set-up please!"

Anybody have an opinion as to how I should have reacted?

DeuceKicker · #2 02-10-2005, 04:25 PM

You have no recourse. Besides, it sounds like the mix-up put five jacks in the deck, which was to your advantage.

Randy_Refeld · #3 02-10-2005, 05:09 PM

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He found an off color card in that last hand deck as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a dealing error. He should have called for a set up when he suspected the decks were not right; he should not have confirmed it on the table for all the players to see. Nothing good comes from the players learning they were playing with a fouled deck.

RR

sonoftow · #4 02-10-2005, 05:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He found an off color card in that last hand deck as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a dealing error. He should have called for a set up when he suspected the decks were not right; he should not have confirmed it on the table for all the players to see. Nothing good comes from the players learning they were playing with a fouled deck.

RR

[/ QUOTE ]

Very intersting point and one which causes me a little embarrassment. You actually caught me telling a story and not reporting the facts absolutely as they happened. To the dealer's credit, he was already calling for a new set-up and deflected the growing indignation at the table by relating to the foor manager that the next deck up had a card from the previous one and an extra Jack of diamonds had been identified in the last hand. I do not remember him actually flipping it up to confirm it.

Very insightful post on your part. I was not aware that the dealers had specific instructions on how to deal with such situations or I would have told my story more accurately.

I'm actually interested in dealing myself so I will pay closer attention to such things in the future. Hopefully the far distant future.

Randy_Refeld · #5 02-10-2005, 06:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I was not aware that the dealers had specific instructions on how to deal with such situations or I would have told my story more accurately

[/ QUOTE ]

You have identified a problem in poker today. A lot of people working in poker as delears, supervisors,a nd even some managers are not aware that there are procedures for these situations. Even though this sort of thing is rare it is important that the staff be able to handle it correctly.

Randy Refeld

Abagadro · #6 02-10-2005, 07:37 PM

Since it was the king that hurt you, I'm not sure you really have a beef, although it is a bummer.

Reminds me of a tourney I played in. I had pocket aces and get called down to the river by pocket 8s only to have one hit the river. Two hands later, the flop comes down with two 8s of spades. Turns out there were 5 8s in the deck. Doh!

bigfishead · #7 02-10-2005, 07:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was not aware that the dealers had specific instructions on how to deal with such situations or I would have told my story more accurately

[/ QUOTE ]

You have identified a problem in poker today. A lot of people working in poker as delears, supervisors,a nd even some managers are not aware that there are procedures for these situations. Even though this sort of thing is rare it is important that the staff be able to handle it correctly.

Randy Refeld

[/ QUOTE ]

Well stated Randy. WAYYY too many in the business today are totally unaware of what was once a "standard" in the business. Including poker room MANAGERS & floorpeople. I was fortunate to have started 21 years ago and nearly my entire family has been in the business at some time or another or currently. Learning from the many that came before me has maybe even made me become rather indignant about some of the higher echalon people in the business that have no clue.

On a note similiar to this situation. When I suspect a deck foul, I call for a setup, I whisper to the floor "check & hold" green deck...or such...on my next break we will discuss it and I will verify it myself. This has helped me to pinpoint holdout artists, card markers, etc. Always done discreetly, including with offenders.

btw...one thing that is often done in this situation is all chips are returned to the players including the blinds in this hand, as if the hand was never dealt or played.

However, that being said, many dealers have NEVER been told of the procedures or been givin specific intructions to situations as above. Then they may also think they will get in trouble and screw it up even more.

SofaCoach · #8 02-10-2005, 08:18 PM

It's all water under the bridge now, but I disagree that the extra J was to this players advantage. Was the J in his hand or the J on the flop the extra Jack? If so, it caused this player to put alot more $$$ into this pot than he otherwise would have. Or was the J in the other guys KJ the extra card? If yes, it caused that guy to stick around to the river.

Now, I do understand your point that in general having any J in a 5-J deck is an edge but AJ dominates KJ whether there are 4, 5 or 10 jacks in the deck. But in this particular case the extra J cost him.

tylerdurden · #9 02-10-2005, 11:39 PM

Very interesting responses.

If I were to notice something like this during the middle of a hand (say I have A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and notice an A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the flop), what should I do? Play the hand out, then notify the dealer/floor, alert the dealer publicly, call the floor and explain the situation quietly to him, or something else? (Assume for the purposes of this question that the card is equally likely to help me as to hurt me, I want the "right" answer, not the answer that's most advantageous to me personally.)

Randy_Refeld · #10 02-11-2005, 12:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
say I have A and notice an A in the flop)

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You must bring this to the dealer/floor's attention. The deck is fouled and players get their money back. If you take action while you have sole knowledge of the deck being improper you lose what you put in the pot and the other players get their money back.

Randy Refeld