150-300 PAYOFF

[Sqred]

I think the payoff is almost automatic. The real question is the play on earlier streets. I play mostly short handed so that might color my feelings, but here is my two cents. If you feel that the flop check raise is a re-steal attempt you need to play the hand EXACTLY like you would if you had a queen or a big wired pair. Would you normally three bet the flop with those holdings? I would probably flat call and raise the turn. If i did three bet the flop, I am definitely betting the turn when checked to, and reevaluting if i get check raised (probably mucking at that point).

I think flat calling the flop and raising the turn the turn will cost u only an extra 1.5 small bets when it gets checked through on the river, and also makes it a lot more likely your opponent mucks something like 44-99, which I doubt he has anyway.

I would only check the turn back if I had a decent number of outs against three queens.

[girgy44]

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If i did three bet the flop, I am definitely betting the turn when checked to, and reevaluting if i get check raised (probably mucking at that point).

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You can't muck the turn here as you still have the flush draw and are getting 6-1 by that time.

[Paluka]

Most people seem to think we should pay this one off. I'm not so sure. If you had ace high in the blinds, wouldn't you be trying to snap off a bluff on this river rather than trying to bluff yourself? It is quite a parlay to hope the blind a) has AK b) didn't 3 bet it preflop and c) is value betting to get a worse ace to call. I don't think AK would bluff this river, he woudl rather check and call. I do think smaller pocket pairs like 77 would bet this river and try to get AK or AJ to call. If we are calling here it seems like we are trying to snap off a busted flush draw.

[imported_PP123]

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You gots to pay off here. Tight/weakish blinds are very fond of playing big aces like this.

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Why do you think the opponent has A-high? I have very hard to understand why a good player would bet a hand like that on the river.

When the opponent bets out on the river I put him on two type of hands:

1. A strong hand. He is valuebetting a big pocket pair, trips, full house etc. Maybe he just called your 3-bet on the flop with the intention to checkraise you on the turn. When you failed to give him this opportunity he now bets the river in an attempt to atleast get some value of his hand. He has no reason to believe you will bet the river after you checked the turn so he can't go for a checkraise again.

2. A hand without showndown value. Maybe he took a shot at you on the flop with some weak holding. Maybe he also has a flushdraw, but a low one without showdown value. Nevertheless, he now bets the river as a last desperation move to steal the pot. He knows his hand doesn't have any chance to win if he checks. But your turn check indicated that you were on a flush draw and if your hand doesn't have any showdowndown value you will probably fold.

All other types of hands won't bet the river IMO. This means hands that are not strong enough to valuebet the river, but still has showndown value. This group includes hands like A-high, K-high, pair of deuces, threes. A pair of fives will probably bet the river. Why would the opponent bet a hand like A-high on the river? A bet like that has no value. No worse hand will call and a better hand will not fold. The best he can do with that hand is to check and maybe induce a bluff.

I play at stakes far from 150-300, so maybe I should not respond to this thread at all...

[DcifrThs]

im assuming this isn't about the river b/c id call there all the time.

flop turn combo then is fine as it nearly always buys you a free card vs. his possible A-high/pair/lower flush draw.

on the turn you clearly check to avoid putting in more bets as a dog and possibly putting two in. something to keep in mind though: in tough games, ive seen good players c'r this turn w/ a pair and fold to a 3bet. clearly if you get c'red again it may be against a Q, but in that case you still have outs and almost every other hand a good player has here (read: small pair/ace high) that also checkraises the turn, folds to the 3bet. not an everyday play, but in this circumstance, i think it works a good enough % of the time, especially since you have a flush draw and possibly an overdard draw to back it up.

Barron

[DrSavage]

Were you calling unimproved ? Pair of 3 doesn't really change that much, I don't think ace high bets there as Paluka said. I think if you call and are good king high would've been good too.

[J_V]

Comments? How do you guys feel about this open in the cutoff is it profitable?

The CO in this hand was not me, it was mimi tran, and I was in the big blind with a strangely played AQ.

You guys can comment on my play as well, which isn't too good. I think the flop should be four bet.

[DcifrThs]

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Were you calling unimproved ? Pair of 3 doesn't really change that much, I don't think ace high bets there as Paluka said. I think if you call and are good king high would've been good too.

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i dont think so. opponent can see Ahigh flush draw here given the way JV played it and bet for value to be called by Ahigh if he has a pair or better than A high.

with the pair of 3s, you now beat those A high hands.

id call there all most every time in a tough game for a few reasons, being best is only 1 of those reasons. think of the hands you'd like to play like that and take a free showdown with. after raising the flop and checking the turn, many opponents will take special note of what you do on the river, do you want a free showdown? do you have a hand you're willing to call but not bet? by calling, it takes off a level of bluffing equity that they may think they have for future hands given you fold this one.

im not even 100% sure the call is -ev based on its value alone. in a tough game, changeups occur every so often and this could be one of them, although the smart money is probably on 55-77 betting this river. but i can definately see a busted flush draw or Ahigh betting as well as a bluff and two way bet respectively.

Barron

[Paluka]

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Comments? How do you guys feel about this open in the cutoff is it profitable?

The CO in this hand was not me, it was mimi tran, and I was in the big blind with a strangely played AQ.

You guys can comment on my play as well, which isn't too good. I think the flop should be four bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I her play is terrible. Preflop raise terrible. I think the river call is a loser as well. Assuming you want to smooth call preflop for some reason, I think you should 4 bet the flop or donkbet the turn. But I don't think your line is too bad really. It only really seems bad when the PFR happens to have a flush draw, which isn't that often.

[Paluka]

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Were you calling unimproved ? Pair of 3 doesn't really change that much, I don't think ace high bets there as Paluka said. I think if you call and are good king high would've been good too.

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i dont think so. opponent can see Ahigh flush draw here given the way JV played it and bet for value to be called by Ahigh if he has a pair or better than A high.

with the pair of 3s, you now beat those A high hands.

id call there all most every time in a tough game for a few reasons, being best is only 1 of those reasons. think of the hands you'd like to play like that and take a free showdown with. after raising the flop and checking the turn, many opponents will take special note of what you do on the river, do you want a free showdown? do you have a hand you're willing to call but not bet? by calling, it takes off a level of bluffing equity that they may think they have for future hands given you fold this one.

im not even 100% sure the call is -ev based on its value alone. in a tough game, changeups occur every so often and this could be one of them, although the smart money is probably on 55-77 betting this river. but i can definately see a busted flush draw or Ahigh betting as well as a bluff and two way bet respectively.

Barron

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Sometimes I think the people on this board are willing to make a -EV play on every street of every hand just because it sets up +EV plays at some point in the future.