Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid

[mdlm]

In LL games I regularly see that 5 players will limp in, get raised by an LP, and then all of the players will call. It looks something like this: limp, limp, limp, limp, limp, raise, call, call, call, call, call.

Two questions:

1. How do I exploit this? One idea is to raise for value in LP with drawing hands (e.g., 77, QJs).

2. How do I avoid this problem? Which hands should I fold to a preflop raiser after limping in?

Thx.

[PseudoPserious]

Hiya mdlm,

I'm pretty much a newbie like yourself, but I'll chip in my two cents here:

1) How do I exploit this? You suggested what I do -- raise on my drawing hands as well as my strong hands. If I hit, I might as well make some money on it.

2) How do I avoid this problem? I try not to limp with hands that should be folded to a single raise behind them. In general, I feel that if I want to fold to a single raise, I shouldn't have limped with it in the first place.

Just my 2c,
PP

[Bob T.]

On the original call, you are getting 3, 4 or 5 to 1. On the call of the raise, you are getting 11 to 1. What hands will you play getting 3 to 1 odds, that you won't play for 11 to 1. Obviously, if it was right to call the limp, it is right to call the raise.

The only situation where you would consider folding, after calling the blinds, is where it comes back to you for three bets, because now you know that there are potentially multiple big hands out there, so you are behind unless you have a premium hand. In fact, now some hands that you might limp with, say AJ off, are likely in a lot of trouble, because you might not have many outs. Additionally, the presence of a raise and three bettor, likely means that the hand will be contested on the flop, so the price you have to pay to see the turn has also just gone up. So you might fold to a threebet if you had just limped in originally.

If you want to take advantage of the limpers, the way to do it is to threebet the raiser, and create some dead money in the pot. But you have to have a hand that can compete with the raiser here.

Good Luck,
Play Well,

Bob T.

[mdlm]

On the original call, you are getting 3, 4 or 5 to 1. On the call of the raise, you are getting 11 to 1. What hands will you play getting 3 to 1 odds, that you won't play for 11 to 1. Obviously, if it was right to call the limp, it is right to call the raise.

This analysis is incorrect. Using this analysis you would _never_ fold to a single raise on any street after betting since your odds _always_ improve.

[Munga30]

What hands would you call with getting 3:1 but fold for 5.5:1?

Once the action is back to you, what information do you have other than your immediate pot odds?

[mdlm]

Once the action is back to you, what information do you have other than your immediate pot odds?

The information that someone raised and that others called.

[pudley4]

No, he's right.

Pre-flop, there are no board cards out. So if your odds increase from 3-1 up to 11-1, you should obviously still call.

Post-flop, the board dictates what odds you need to continue. You might be getting 18-1, but if your only out is to a runner-runner flush, you need 23-1 to call.

[mdlm]

The point is that if you bet and someone raises, your odds are _always_ better. This means that you would _never_ fold to a raise after betting if his analysis is correct. Obviously it's not.

[bernie]

the odds of making your hand change dramatically once the flop is out. your odds dont improve to making your hand necesarily based solely on pot odds. do you know what 'fit or fold' is and what it means? if the flop misses you completely you dont have the same odds to call as if you catch a piece of the flop regardless of pot odds. what are you drawing to? you missed

bob had a great explanation i thought...

b

[Mason Malmuth]

Before the flop. if it was correct to limp in and now you call a raise for one more bet, you are playing correctly. There are virtually no hands that you would fold in this spot for one more bet.

But you do fold some of these hands when in the blind if someone raises. There are two reasons for this. First, there is no additional blind money in the pot (since you are the blind). Second, it looks natural to fold the blind and thus doesn't encourage players to take shots at you.

Here's an example. Suppose you call with AJ UTG and are immediately raised by the player on your left. Without discussing the rest of the action, you should be prepared to call for one more bet. However, if you held this same hand in the big blind against this exact same raiser, you might (and often should) fold.

MM