If you are about to sign up for your 15th Party account-read this

[beanie]

There is too much discussion in this forum about the wrong thing. Here is what affiliates are doing wrong that has rakeback viewed in a negative manner. I’ll use the Party Poker example and I am really quickly turning to being on their side given the posts and behavior of affiliates to subvert the systems they have in place.

Party Poker says no rakeback network wide (way back when) so everyone leaves them and signs up with skins to get rakeback. As the customer I think everyone is OK at this point the reality is the customer sees a value and they go for it (though the customer did realistically know something was up when they had to set up their 5th neteller account in there grandmothers dogs name). The affiliate though is way out of bounds recruiting within the network to get new players. So eventually they get that memo and start spamming other sites. Unfortunately, all of those people have Party Poker accounts as well, no problem the affiliates already know how to beat the system from when they were stealing business from them and the fact is no affiliate seems to want to leave one nickel on the table.

At this point affiliates are fairly clear on this issue, Party Poker has advertised for these players, affiliates and skins now begin to recognize the fact that they are doing wrong but justify their subversive ways by saying to themselves “we are now so big if they screw us they screw themselves”. One big problem with that theory, people only take being stolen from for so long before they get real mad. In fact in the company itself (I am making a logical conclusion I have no information on this point) my guess is the affiliate managers that got those customers at first are now being undercut by new affiliate managers. The old guard hates rakeback, these guys put millions of dollars in Party Poker’s pocket, and they have their ear. The new guys tell anyone whatever they want to hear, the reality is there are few new customers in online poker. They are now part of the problem.

So Party cuts the skins and in effect picks up a bunch of percent they used to pay them. Affiliates are panicking and customers are panicking. Affiliates were making a fortune picking off players, though the relationship was relatively insecure, after all they were stealing those customers and there are only so many Fido Johnson’s you can sign up before Party Poker says “hey wait a second”. Affiliates actually buy the line that they will be able to sign up Party Poker customers in the transition. Customers will do anything to get back on the rakeback gravy train even though Party Poker has said and DONE many things to point out to them that this behavior is unacceptable. Affiliates will say anything to get back the money they have lost including going down the same path they were on even though they are putting their customers at considerable risk. The customer also knows the risk but they don’t care, they were getting something, they want it back and will do anything to get it back.

So, if Party Poker cut off its skins to gain X amount of percent, why are they going to allow affiliates to take up to 30% away from them? Simple answer, they won’t. If someone is asking you to set up your 13th Party Poker account, they aren’t doing you any favors.

It’s about time that the bigger affiliates in the industry start acting like businesses and get out of the back alleys.

So now I have identified the problems for the most part, I also think I have the solution and when I get 15 minutes free I will post that as well. Many people will want to kill the messenger; I am just identifying the problems. Affiliates and customers need to change their behavior to get the results we all desire.

[scrapperdog]

We all know how it worked between party and the skins....these issues have been talked about over and over and over. Cant wait to hear your solution....maybe it will be a lil more origional than the post.

As far as I am concerned this is certain affiliates fault. There were multiple affiliates advertising rakeback on rakerebatereview. The could not and would not do the smart thing and let everything settle down, keep quiet, and all that.

Big affiliates cannot offer Party RB and they are going nuts to see all these ppl that want to return to Pty from the x-skins and yet their hands (afft's hands) are tied.

So the solution that I see is for ppl to take the risk and go for the smaller affts or even better cooperate with your friends etc. Staying small and invisible is the best option right now and as long as (and it seems to be very looong) Pty will not allow RB and will track big affts that try to cheat.

Let me repeat I'm not a professional afft.

Thanks

[otctrader]

Blah blah yeah we all feel horrible for Party. As I've said before, Party created this mess because they instituted revenue share with an anti-RB stance yet CAN'T ENFORCE IT.

RB is the inevitable "black market" by-product of a thriving Partypoker economy. Sure Party can slap around a few affiliates and grumble, but they won't come close to stamping out the problem they created.

Are affiliates and players wrong to engage in RB? Nope, neither. Affiliates are just taking advantage of the system Party set up, and accomodating players that do the same. I suppose you could come up with some moral/ethical argument against it, but let's face it, none of us are involved with poker to demonstrate our moral virtues.

Players and affiliates are just seeking value in the system, and to do otherwise is silly. Those who do so tactfully and efficiently are rewarded in the long run.

[pshabi]

ENJOY?

[Jimbo]

[ QUOTE ]
......the reality is there are few new customers in online poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need a tin foil hat for that oversized beanie you are wearing. Few new online poker players? What an uninformed opinion!

[Inthacup]

Regardless of whether I agree or disagree with the points you are making, I enjoy reading your posts.

Cup

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker says no rakeback network wide (way back when) so everyone leaves them and signs up with skins to get rakeback. As the customer I think everyone is OK at this point the reality is the customer sees a value and they go for it (though the customer did realistically know something was up when they had to set up their 5th neteller account in there grandmothers dogs name). The affiliate though is way out of bounds recruiting within the network to get new players.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ridiculous. All my Party network accounts have exactly the same name, address, email, bank account, etc. That whole grandmother's dog thing is just something you made up. Skin signups of party customers were done completely openly and several skins actually used IGM's cashier service.

Empire and the rest of the skins are separate businesses. An Empire affiliate works for Empire and has no obligation whatsoever to Party. Empire affiliates of all types who went after Party customers were just doing the job they were hired to do.

If Party wanted to ban the skins from signing up Party customers they should have negotiated that when they signed contracts with the skins. Of course I suspect some skins would have either not signed up at all or would have demanded major monetary concessions in return.

Party is a big business struggling with its partners because the industry has changed. The conflict between the skins isn't moral or ethical. It's just business.

[dumb ox]

[ QUOTE ]
... the reality is there are few new customers in online poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this true? It seems unlikely, unless the bad players really enjoy losing money, and do it over and over.

A big question if all these players, that have been used to rakeback programs, will continue to play at Party Poker without any reimbursment. Over the short term I think most players will, but Internet is a place of tough compentition and I don't think the high industry rake is sustainable. It seems possible now to get rakebacks at almost every other network and maybe players will slowly try the cryptologics, absolute, pokerroom etc. I personally play at most networks and my take is that there are plenty of fish all around, with perhaps an exception of Stars. Using pokertracker it becomes obvious how much all that rake adds up. The rake is ok for 10/20 and up, but on the low stakes I am quite sure that you make more money playing at Prima with a 37% rakeback. It will be interesting to see what will happen.