Quiz on Holdem from Ciaffone/Reuben Pot and NL Book

[Indiana]

Did anybody disagree with some of the answers in this quiz? I mean, I am scoring mediocre when I usually do very well. I don't get it, shove all ur chips in with A8o with against a late raise? WTF?

Indy

I thought it was a pretty good book, especially given the derth of good NL books out there, but I was very disappointed with that quiz section. There were a few answers that I disagreed with, but the thing that really irritated me when I was reading it was how ridiculously results-oriented he was.

I mean, almost every hand had a story to go along with it about how in 19xx he was playing in some big tournament against world champion so-and-so and this exact situation came up. Fold a flopped set on a board of rags? He gives a couple sentences of what I think is very weak reasoning and then dives into a story about how the guy he was playing against later told him that he had flopped a better set so it was a good laydown.

On the hand you're talking about, he reveals that his opponent had K9s. (See!! It was a good play, A8o is favored over K9s!) And as if that wasn't enough, he makes sure to point out that since a K came on the flop, he would have lost if he hadn't driven him out with the push. I'm sorry, but who gives a [censored] what happened later in that particular hand? How is that relevant to the decision at hand? It seemed to me that most of the quizes were just an excuse for him to brag about some big plays he made that happened out to be correct.

I won't go so far as to say that his answers are definitely wrong, but it would have been nice to see more sound theoretical reasoning instead of just talking about the results of a few particular hands.

[MCS]

Is that the hand that's against an on-a-rush Jack Strauss cutoff raise? If so, I think there's more to it than "Move in with A8o against a late-position raise."

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Is that the hand that's against an on-a-rush Jack Strauss cutoff raise? If so, I think there's more to it than "Move in with A8o against a late-position raise."

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I think there's more to it than that too. The problem is that the question doesn't give us any more information than that.

How many players are left at this point? Are we near the bubble or another jump in the prize money? How big is that jump? What are the stack sizes of the other short stacks? If I'm short-stacked late in a tournament, I'm looking to maximize my EV, not necessarily maximize my chances of coming in first. If there are 46 players left, 45 make the money, and you're in 45th place, are you reraising all-in here?

Has this guy been repeatedly stealing the blinds, leading you to suspect he has any two cards, or is this the first time he's done it? The answer seems to assume the former, but the question doesn't give us any way to know that; it only says that he has a big stack of about a quarter million. I admit to knowing nothing about the playing style of Jack Straus, but I'm not putting my tournament on the line with that kind of hand without being damn sure his raising standards are suffiently low.

The question says we're short-stacked, but we have over 50 times the big blind and enough to last more than 15 orbits at this level before being blinded out. That may be short-stacked relative to the other players, but it's nowhere near desperation time. We've got plenty of time to wait for something better than A8o to make our stand.

Even with all that said, raising is not horrible if you read him as being weak, but it's certainly a close call. Folding is not horrible either. The scoring system for the quiz gives 10 points if you say raise, 2 points if you say fold. Even if you think raising is better, to suggest it is so clear-cut is absurd. And again going back to my original complaint, he's too busy discussing the results of one particular occurance of this situation to adequately analyze all the options. Not once in his answer does he even acknowledge the possibility of folding. The only logic behind his answer is based on his assumption that Straus is playing a random hand.

[Indiana]

Ungoliant,

You have taken the words directly with my mouth with this post. It is a good book, but that quiz is ridiculous. I wouldnt push all my 22K stack in with blinds at 200/400 against a late position raise with A8o even if the guy is aggro would you?

Indy

[JohnG]

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Did anybody disagree with some of the answers in this quiz? I mean, I am scoring mediocre when I usually do very well. I don't get it, shove all ur chips in with A8o

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The wsop hand? That was an easy push.

[JohnG]

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Is that the hand that's against an on-a-rush Jack Strauss cutoff raise? If so, I think there's more to it than "Move in with A8o against a late-position raise."

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there's more to it than that too. The problem is that the question doesn't give us any more information than that.

How many players are left at this point? Are we near the bubble or another jump in the prize money? How big is that jump? What are the stack sizes of the other short stacks? If I'm short-stacked late in a tournament, I'm looking to maximize my EV, not necessarily maximize my chances of coming in first. If there are 46 players left, 45 make the money, and you're in 45th place, are you reraising all-in here?

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All the relevant info was there in the question. It was early enough where none of the above mattered.

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Has this guy been repeatedly stealing the blinds, leading you to suspect he has any two cards, or is this the first time he's done it? The answer seems to assume the former, but the question doesn't give us any way to know that; it only says that he has a big stack of about a quarter million. I admit to knowing nothing about the playing style of Jack Straus, but I'm not putting my tournament on the line with that kind of hand without being damn sure his raising standards are suffiently low.

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In my book the question says such things as 'highly aggressive player', 'over a 1/4 of a million in front of him, allowing his throttle to go full out'. I don't know about you, but that information seems relatively straight forward and descriptive.

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The question says we're short-stacked, but we have over 50 times the big blind and enough to last more than 15 orbits at this level before being blinded out. That may be short-stacked relative to the other players, but it's nowhere near desperation time. We've got plenty of time to wait for something better than A8o to make our stand.

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Which is why you will get run over by the huge stacked aggressive player.

[JohnG]

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Ungoliant,

You have taken the words directly with my mouth with this post. It is a good book, but that quiz is ridiculous. I wouldnt push all my 22K stack in with blinds at 200/400 against a late position raise with A8o even if the guy is aggro would you?

Indy

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Facing a 4k bet from a hyper aggressive player, it's an easy push, both in terms of the value of your hand, the ratios, and for psychological reasons ralating to the dynamics of the table.

Over 5k in the middle when it gets to you, and you are highly likely to have the best hand. Which play do you think has the highest ev here? If you keep surrendering in this spot, then you are going to get murdered by this guy.