Facing reality

[David Ottosen]

So, I am a very VERY competitive person. Almost every game or hobby I ever tried was based on individual one on one type competition, from table tennis to chess to intellectual competitions. And I've always been more than happy with my results, which I have always attributed to the fact that I "wanted it more" than the competition.

And I apply this same mindset to poker. But obviously, sheer desire and effort won't always get it done in poker; as much of the time as your money goes in with the best of it, you still lose your fair share of individual hands. I guess the real problem for me is that my competitive nature is really hindering me from seeing the long run and dealing with losing a hand here or there to horrible suckouts. And the following problem is that to "work harder" in poker is to primarily do nothing; ie, to fold, whereas in every other thing I've tried, working harder almost always means being more aggressive and doing more. So, when I get into a situation where things aren't going well in poker, I tend to get over aggressive and play too many hands, which leads to bigger swings and bigger losses.

I'm seriously thinking that I may have to stop playing due to the fact that I may simply not have the mindset to deal with these problems. I find the problem not so material online, perhaps because I can't see my opponent, and it doesn't become as personally competitive to me.

I guess my questions is to the posters here; how competitive do you consider yourself, and do you think your level of competitiveness helps or hinders your game? Because at the moment, I consider myself incredibly competitive, and it's really hindering my game.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I've been ultra-competitive my whole life, but I was fortunate enough to have a coach who taught me that there's a difference between WANTING to win more than the other guy and BEING WILLING TO DO WHAT IT TAKES to win more than the other guy. The former leads to being surly after a loss. Soon you go from being a competitive person to being a sore loser. That will kill you in poker.

The latter means understanding how to make your game better. No basketball player likes shooting 500 free throws a day. But that may be what it takes to elevate his game. For poker, it's learning to assess your position on the flop and turn, and being able to fold before you get "tied to the pot."

I took two horrendous beats back-to-back at Mohegan last weekend (getting sympathetic looks from some other folks at the table). I took a walk to the Men's room, and when I came back, I said quietly to the guy who had shaken his head the most, "In the long run, I want him to call those bets." From that point until the end of my session Monday night, I think I played better. Score one for me against tilt.

[Jedi Poker]

"Almost every game or hobby I ever tried was based on individual one on one type competition..."

So you've always liked heads up competition, don't you?

"...to 'work harder' in poker is to primarily do nothing; ie, to fold, whereas in every other thing I've tried, working harder almost always means being more aggressive and doing more."

In heads-up poker, 'working harder' also means 'being more aggressive and doing more'. In other words, when it comes to mindset, heads-up/shorthanded poker is closer to 'every other thing' you've tried than it is to ring game poker (where 'to work harder' means to fold).

"...I may have to stop playing due to the fact that I may simply not have the mindset..."

No, don't stop playing! Focus and channel your STRENGTHS on shorthanded/heads-up play instead. And learn to handle the bigger swings that you WILL encounter there with a SMILE on your face! [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

In short, I don't know how many times you play ring games versus shorthanded. But my suggestion is, whatever that ratio is, find a way to play more shorthanded and heads up.

[Al Schoonmaker]

David,

Your basic problem is that you want to act naturally, but still win. In order to win at poker you have to do LOTS of unnatural things because IT IS NATURAL TO LOSE.

If you doubt me, just look at the statistics. The experts say that about 90% of all poker players lose.

I addressed this issue in my book, and I am going to risk boring you with a long quotation from a section on tight-aggressive players.

Hope it's useful.

Regards,

Al

But tightness and related qualities such as caution and control are not normally combined with aggressiveness. In fact, you will hardly ever see that combination outside of highly specialized occupations such as fighter pilots and police officers.
Because it is so unnatural, the tight-aggressive playing style rarely occurs without lots of work. All you need to become a maniac or calling station is the right personality and enough money to indulge yourself. To become a rock you need the right personality and some study of the odds and strategy. To become a tight- aggressive player takes the right personality, lots of study, and extreme discipline.
Tight-aggressive players are made, not born. Instead of just acting naturally, they have worked to hone their skills and develop the right attitudes and habits. You may not want to adopt such an unnatural style. If so, you resemble the tennis hackers who objected that hitting the ball properly "doesn't feel natural."
Good tennis, golf, and other sports require lots of unnatural actions. So does good poker. If you object to doing something unnatural, remember: It is natural to lose.
Most players lose precisely because they do what feels natural. They play too many hands, or check when they should bet, or do not raise unless they have a lock, or take lots of other "natural," but self- defeating actions. If you want to win, you have to do the unnatural things that other winners do.
Let's look at tennis lessons again. One of the unnatural things that good players do is keep their eyes focused on the ball until after the racket hits through it. It is much more natural to shift your focus at the last instant to where you want to hit it. I've taken lots of tennis lessons, and one coach kept nagging me: "Look at the ball! Look at the ball! Look at the ball!"
Finally, I got annoyed and said, "That's all you ever say. Why don't you tell me what else to do?" He gave me that look that teachers give to inept students and said, "Until you look at the ball, nothing else matters." Exactly the same principle applies to poker. Unless you play against very weak players, until you play the right style, nothing else matters. You are going to lose.
If that statement offends you, I apologize, but you probably knew it already. You may have denied it and wished that there was some way to win and still enjoy the pleasure you get from your current style, but you can't do it.
Denying that reality is the same as saying: "I want to lose weight, but still eat whatever I enjoy." The diet gurus pander to this denial with a new "miracle" every week, and they all follow the same depressing cycle. People get excited; their creators make a bundle; but they don't work, and the wishful thinkers switch to the next miracle. If you really want to lose weight, you have to change your eating habits. If you really want to win at poker, you have to change your playing style.
Your style at poker is probably the same as it is at work, home, and other places. You play the way you do because you are what you are. That is another reason to look more deeply at yourself.

[Al Schoonmaker]

Jedi,

That was outstanding advice. I wish I had said it.

Regards,

Al

[Vehn]

You're not "too competitive" or "don't have the right mindset". Your problem is you go on tilt when you take some beats.

[David Ottosen]

Obviously that's the end result of the problem and I know it. However, saying "don't go on tilt" to myself apparently doesn't work. So I've been trying to figure out the underlying causes. You don't think a tendency to go on tilt is indicative that you don't have the right mindset?

But thanks for the advice. Whatever it was.

[Vehn]

My "advice" was to essentially stop making excuses for your tiltyness and recognize that you're not mature/disciplined enough at the moment to avoid going on tilt when you take some beats. Forget the pyschobabble.

[David Ottosen]

That is not helpful advice. It doesn't do anything to solve the problem.

[Vehn]

I agree completely.