good river value raise or spew?

yourface · #1 12-01-2005, 05:12 PM

Just started at the table, no read on villan.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 8 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

Value raise or spew, whaddaya think?

tyler_cracker · #2 12-01-2005, 05:27 PM

As played, the river raise is fine. Your turn check behind may have induced a bluff from a worse hand. Once he 3-bets, you're almost certainly hosed (AT/A5 are likely holdings), but you have to call.

However, just fold your UI overs on the flop in this small pot.

#3 12-01-2005, 05:31 PM

I think it's raise and fold to a 3-bet, and bash your mouse for not getting a showdown.

yourface · #4 12-01-2005, 05:35 PM

Do you really think that we don't have the best hand enough to call the river 3bet here? Plus calling down gives us a better read on the villan.

#5 12-01-2005, 05:44 PM

this is why I just call the river bet. We are getting 9:1 to call this 3-bet, but I think we're beat here like >90% of the time. We can just call the river donk (he is not backing down) and get the showdown.

tyler_cracker · #6 12-01-2005, 06:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this is why I just call the river bet. We are getting 9:1 to call this 3-bet, but I think we're beat here like >90% of the time. We can just call the river donk (he is not backing down) and get the showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you really giving Villain credit for enough of a hand that you're just calling this river donk, without knowing that Villain will 3-bet when we raise? I think you're being results-oriented, you naughty boy.

This is not to say i necessarily hate folding (though i would go ahead and call down), but i think your reasoning is disingenuous.

SnglMaltScotch · #7 12-01-2005, 06:28 PM

Raise yes, but I fold to the three-bet. You are NOT winning this hand.

#8 12-01-2005, 06:32 PM

Grunch:

I'm not sure about the EP raise with AJo with no reads. Did you flop raise to slow him down or do you think you are the best now? What did his call tell you?

I think you almost have to bet the turn to try to win the pot right there. If his flop bet/call indicates cathcing a piece of the flop, then you are drawing to 6 outs at most.
Is KJ a possibility?
BB wakes up again on the riv, I'm only calling. His 3 bet seals the deal that you are likely behind.

#9 12-01-2005, 07:38 PM

This is one case where a good read on the Villian makes a lot of difference (and I know you don't have one yet...). What does his bet on the flop mean???

I've seen players at this level who won't lead out after the flop unless they've connected with it somehow, and against these players, if the pot's small enough, I may fold this on the flop if I think my only chance to win is to spike a pair. If I made it to the river, I'd probably just call the river bet rather than raise against someone like this.

I've seen other players (a surprising number at $.50/$1, actually) whose flop bet means that they still have two hole cards. Against someone like that, I'd play it the same way you did - call the 3-bet, and expect to see him turn over A-rag more often than not.

Against someone that I don't have a read on, I probably play it the same way - raise the river, call the 3-bet, and hope that I have found favor in the eyes of the poker gods.

#10 12-01-2005, 07:53 PM

Don't raise if you can't fold to the 3bet.

I raise and I fold to the 3bet.