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#112
07-25-2005, 04:48 PM
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Re: How do atheist\\scientists account for Thomas Aquinas?
[ QUOTE ]
Quantum physics and what amounts to complete randomness in the universe on some level finishes the job. [/ QUOTE ] Quantum physics can't prove complete randomness. You're right that Aquinas had to make an assumption. So do we all. The next step is to examine the consequences of the assumption. If you assume ultimate irrationality, how do you avoid ultimate meaninglessness? 
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#113
07-25-2005, 04:54 PM
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Re: Exodus 22 : 28
pot meet kettle.
I didnt insult you in the first thread and after your sinking sands nonsence I then had carte blanche to express myself more bluntly. Perhaps you are not familiar with the pissing into the wind metaphor, but in Britain it is commonly used to denote a futile exercise and isnt done so perjoratively. Please quote were I insult you specificaly in the first thread. My second thread again wasnt directly insulting it just lacked tact, you didnt deserve tact after the sinking sands debacle. As I have said, you are taking the easy way out as you know your position isnt discursively supportable.
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#114
07-25-2005, 05:25 PM
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Re: How do atheist\\scientists account for Thomas Aquinas?
[ QUOTE ]
You're right that Aquinas had to make an assumption. So do we all. The next step is to examine the consequences of the assumption. If you assume ultimate irrationality, how do you avoid ultimate meaninglessness? [/ QUOTE ] Why must we avoid ultimate meaninglessness?
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#115
07-25-2005, 05:45 PM
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Re: Exodus 22 : 28
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Your elaborate argument is nothing but Euthyphro applied to logic. [/ QUOTE ] No, it is not, because I followed strictly Christian premises and Christian logic, both of this world. But kudos for the name drop. [ QUOTE ] It's just a statement that God CAN'T exist. Which also means neither logic nor morality can exist. [/ QUOTE ] No, wrong again, sorry. Logic and morality do exist! This is an undisputable fact. We understand them, use them and experience them every day. They are here -- as sure as eggs and bacon are here. What we are arguing about is whether Logic and Morality pre-existed, i.e. if they predated Man, if they were created by God, along with our cosmos, and then the cosmos sat back and waited (only seven days waiting by one account) for Man to appear and adopt God's logic and morality. You say Amen to that, I say never happen.
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#116
07-25-2005, 05:49 PM
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Re: Exodus 22 : 28
VNH.
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#118
07-25-2005, 06:01 PM
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Re: Exodus 22 : 28
[ QUOTE ]
Logic and morality do exist! This is an undisputable fact. [/ QUOTE ] It's hardly indisputable. Unless you're redefining terms. How can logic exist in a universe that's ultimately irrational? How can you get an ought from an is? [ QUOTE ] if they were created by God, [/ QUOTE ] They weren't created by God. They are an expression of His nature.
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#119
07-25-2005, 06:54 PM
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Heroica
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Logic and morality do exist! This is an undisputable fact. [/ QUOTE ] It's hardly indisputable. How can logic exist in a universe that's ultimately irrational? How can you get an ought from an is? [/ QUOTE ] Logic and Morality do exist in our world. Explain me how you would read Theory of Poker if Logic did not exist? Explain me why I would not kill my wife's rapist if morality did not exist? You are saying that God created Logic and Morality -- or, rather, that they are part of His nature. But I just showed that all kinds of logic and morality (even non-logic and immorality) should be part of His nature too, if Christian dogma is followed. [ QUOTE ] How can logic exist in a universe that's ultimately irrational? [/ QUOTE ] This question assumes that there is some deterministic grand scheme (e.g. God) behind it all. Well, the world can very well be (or appear to be) irrational to us humans but this should not preclude us humans from being rational! Logic exists because we Men try to understand our world and our existence in it, by using the abilities of our brains. (Seeing as the blood sacrifices of thousands of virgins or praying for runner-runner were not much help.) Sklansky considers the existence of Morality a mere biological evolutionary blimp. Others consider it a manifestation of Man's empathy to fellow Man on account of Man's profound (yet unacknowledged) realization of the randomness of this universe and Man's very existence. Consequently, the realisation of the forced and equal sharing of such horror places Man squarely in the place of any other being like him, i.e. other Men. Man adopts Morality in his dealings with other Men because this is the only compassion Man is ever likely to get, if only by reflection, in this world. --Cyrus PS : Our world is not "irrational"; it's just not rational the way we humans understand ratio (reason). There might very well be a ratio in our world which we are/will allways be totally unable to comprehend. PPS : The best we can "give" to the deists is the acknowledgement that if such a beyond-human-comprehension ratio "exists", then we could, we suppose, call it by any name we choose. "God" would be OK althought terribly misleading.
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#120
07-25-2005, 09:14 PM
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Re: Heroica
[ QUOTE ]
Logic and Morality do exist in our world. Explain me how you would read Theory of Poker if Logic did not exist? Explain me why I would not kill my wife's rapist if morality did not exist? [/ QUOTE ] If the universe is irrational the probabilities that Poker is based on are an illusion. The top card could be the ace of spades or a pink elephant. You can kill or not kill the rapist, if ultimate morality doesn't exist it doesn't matter. [ QUOTE ] Logic exists because we Men try to understand our world and our existence in it, by using the abilities of our brains. [/ QUOTE ] I don't deny the effort. I deny the ultimate possibility if the ultimate truth is irrational. You can try to understand the world for eternity but will make zero progress if there's nothing to understand.
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