Razor Thin Value Bet?

Scotch78 · #1 10-10-2005, 03:31 PM

First orbit, so not even any stat reads.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 4 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 3-bets, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (7.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets

Scott

Piiop · #2 10-10-2005, 03:40 PM

You forgot to raise one of those other streets.

Scotch78 · #3 10-10-2005, 03:46 PM

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You forgot to raise one of those other streets.

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Offering 7.5-1 on the flop doesn't protect didly and raising the absolute worst turn card accomplishes even less.

Scott

callmedonnie · #4 10-10-2005, 03:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You forgot to raise one of those other streets.

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I intended to raise most turns, but the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] was the absolute worst card for me.

Scott

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You should raise flop and turn.

W. Deranged · #5 10-10-2005, 03:49 PM

In a pot this big, I like a flop raise. You might get cold-callers with inferior hands. Your relative position to the flop bettor isn't great, so it'll be hard to get a ton of value here as it is. I think a flop raise is more likely to keep customers and/or encourage players to play back at you than a turn raise is, which is very likely to kill most/all of your action. Note that UTG+2 could well have an overpair here, or have flopped top pair with a suited broadway hand, and hence might three-bet your raise.

So raise the flop. I don't see a river value bet three-handed as your opponents could totally have random clubs in their hands or, in the case of UTG+2, AA. I doubt you're folding a better hand, either.

W. Deranged · #6 10-10-2005, 03:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You forgot to raise one of those other streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Offering 7.5-1 on the flop doesn't protect didly and raising the absolute worst turn card accomplishes even less.

Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

Not every raise is for protection. You are raising the flop for VALUE.

#7 10-10-2005, 03:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You forgot to raise one of those other streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Offering 7.5-1 on the flop doesn't protect didly and raising the absolute worst turn card accomplishes even less.

Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

Not raising the flop is really really really bad. Given that, not raising the turn is really really really really really really bad. We raise the flop for value. What exactly is raising the turn going to protect our hand from? We are never ever going to fold a flush draw. Given that you called the flop, we have to raise the turn to extract max value from anyone sticking around with a lone [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I see no point in betting the river.

Scotch78 · #8 10-10-2005, 03:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not every raise is for protection. You are raising the flop for VALUE.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I felt there was more value in waiting for the turn. If UTG+2 likes to limp-reraise with big pairs, then I love my chances of him 3-betting the turn with an overpair. Also, if he has AK or any of the limpers stick around with a draw, I make more money from them by waiting as well.

Scott

#9 10-10-2005, 03:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not every raise is for protection. You are raising the flop for VALUE.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I felt there was more value in waiting for the turn. If UTG+2 likes to limp-reraise with big pairs, then I love my chances of him 3-betting the turn with an overpair. Also, if he has AK or any of the limpers stick around with a draw, I make more money from them by waiting as well.

Scott

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Then why didn't you raise the turn? If you're going to puss out on the turn raise, you shouldn't be waiting for the turn.

2+2 wannabe · #10 10-10-2005, 04:03 PM

easy turn raise