Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > General Poker Discussion > Poker Theory

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-19-2005, 01:27 AM
DarrenJG DarrenJG is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 7
Default Basic Pot Odds Questions - Please Help a New Guy

In reading The Theory of Poker, Small Stakes Poker and others there seems to be some ambiguity regarding Pot Odds (or at least it’s unclear to me). I had a couple of fundamental questions that I’m sure someone can clear up for me. The first is quite simple, the second is more cumbersome. Please help a new guy out!

First, do you include your bet in the pot figure? For instance, if the pot sits at $50, the bet to you is $10, and you intend to call (and close betting for the round), are the pot odds 5 to 1 or 6 to 1? In this case your additional $10 brings the pot up to $60. This is so basic, but I seem to see both methods mentioned in different places.

Second, when calculating pot odds for a call, and then someone raises behind you, are your pot odds thereafter calculated on a cumulative basis for that round? For instance, when it comes back around to you, and say you intend to call the raise, are the odds based on the sum of both of your calls? The Theory of Poker at pg. 41 seems to state pretty clearly that it is cumulative, but what about the argument that once your money is in the pot it’s dead and you shouldn’t consider it?

I can see a rationale for either approach. On the one hand, your earlier call is already in the pot and the only question at hand is whether to call the latest raise – which will almost always be giving improved pot odds (unless it was raised and re-raised once or more). This would lead to very rarely calling an original bet but then folding in the face of a subsequent raise in the same round.

But perhaps, TOP is just saying when making the FIRST call and you KNOW a raise will come behind then you should factor it in, in which case you may be advised to just fold on the first call. But are they saying once you are raised behind that you should calculate pot odds based on both of your calls (which would likely decrease pot odds), and thereby lead to more situations in which you might call a bet only to fold to a subsequent raiser in the same round?

Also, if pot odds are to be calculated cumulatively, then doesn’t this undercut the rationale that you hurt opponents behind you more if you raise right after the player to your right has bet (since subsequent betters have to call 2 bets at worse pot odds). This seems logical, however, if you calculate pot odds cumulatively, why would it matter if the original better was to your right or to your left when you raised the bet? Because even if the better was to your left and you raised when it came around to you, the subsequent better would only be calling 1 additional bet on that very call, but it would still be the 2 bets for the overall round.

Hopefully this is clear enough. These seem like very basic principles, but surprisingly, I can't seem to find crystal clear explanations in the texts I have seen.

Thanks much for any input,
Darren
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-19-2005, 02:02 AM
UATrewqaz UATrewqaz is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 276
Default Re: Basic Pot Odds Questions - Please Help a New Guy

1. Any uncalled bets that you have to call are factored in.

Thus if the pot if $50 and someone bets $10 and its your action you are getting 6-1 on your money (the $10 he bet is now part of the pot).

2. If there are players behind you, you may have to factor in the action behind you in your decision.

For example if you have the right odds to call 1 bet but not two, you need to be fairly certain no one behind you will raise the bet you are about to call.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-19-2005, 02:22 AM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Basic Pot Odds Questions - Please Help a New Guy

The first poster was definitely right but (maybe I'm reading this wrong) I think your own question kind of confuses something that needs to be cleared up.

You asked "do you include your bet in the pot figure? For instance, if the pot sits at $50, the bet to you is $10, and you intend to call (and close betting for the round), are the pot odds 5 to 1 or 6 to 1? In this case your additional $10 brings the pot up to $60."

It's not YOUR bet that is bringing the pot up to 60 but the uncalled bet that you have YET to call is bringing it up to 60. Does that make sense?

Like you said, if the pot is $50 and there's a $10 bet, the pot is essentially $60 (your additional $10 would make it $70, see?).

The $10 you have not yet put in doesn't count.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-19-2005, 02:38 AM
DarrenJG DarrenJG is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 7
Default Re: Basic Pot Odds Questions - Please Help a New Guy

As for the first question, what I meant was that the pot was $50 as the bet was to me. In other words, IF I call, the pot would then be $60 with my additional money. This being the case, are the odds 5 to 1 or 6 to 1.

It seems that you're saying, in this case, the odds are 5 to 1. Correct?

Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-19-2005, 02:57 AM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Basic Pot Odds Questions - Please Help a New Guy

[ QUOTE ]
As for the first question, what I meant was that the pot was $50 as the bet was to me. In other words, IF I call, the pot would then be $60 with my additional money. This being the case, are the odds 5 to 1 or 6 to 1.

It seems that you're saying, in this case, the odds are 5 to 1. Correct?

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I don't know why this is getting so muddled (I'm not blaming you, I had a similar problem when I first learned the concept) but I'm going to try to clear it up here the best I can.

Let’s start preflop. Say 4 people put $10 in. Right now, the pot is $40.

Now on the flop someone bets $10 and you are next to act. Just take the $40 that was in before the flop and add the $10 the bettor just put in. Pot is now $50.

Now it’s your turn. You have to put $10 into a pot of $50, so the odds are 5 to 1.

So when you ask “IF I call, the pot will be $60” then no, you do not count it as $60. Whatever you have not yet put in the pot does not count.

Just tell me if this doesn’t make sense.


PS--I played at paradise poker yesterday for the first time and noticed that on the top of the screen they have a "Pot + Bets" amount. Checking that out might help you to see where you should get the figure for what is currently in the pot.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-19-2005, 03:01 AM
DarrenJG DarrenJG is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 7
Default Re: Basic Pot Odds Questions - Please Help a New Guy

Yeah, that's completely clear and it makes sense. Thanks much.

Any thouhgts on my second question? I know it's more complicated and cumbersome, but I was trying to be somewhat precise with it.

Thanks again,
Darren
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-19-2005, 03:16 AM
BradleyT BradleyT is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 512
Default Re: Basic Pot Odds Questions - Please Help a New Guy

[ QUOTE ]
But perhaps, TOP is just saying when making the FIRST call and you KNOW a raise will come behind then you should factor it in, in which case you may be advised to just fold on the first call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is correct. In EP you often have to figure in a possible raise behind so instead of calling $10 into the $50 pot it might really be $20 into a $70 pot.

[ QUOTE ]
But are they saying once you are raised behind that you should calculate pot odds based on both of your calls (which would likely decrease pot odds), and thereby lead to more situations in which you might call a bet only to fold to a subsequent raiser in the same round?

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you call one bet it's almost never wrong to call the second bet (barring a read such as he only raises with top set and I'm drawing dead with 2 pair or someone between me and the raiser might get tricky and 3-bet it).
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-19-2005, 03:25 AM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Basic Pot Odds Questions - Please Help a New Guy

I think you might already know this but I'll go through the first part of your second question.

[ QUOTE ]
…when calculating pot odds for a call, and then someone raises behind you, are your pot odds thereafter calculated on a cumulative basis for that round? For instance, when it comes back around to you, and say you intend to call the raise, are the odds based on the sum of both of your calls?

[/ QUOTE ]

Best way to explain this is probably just to take the example I used from the first question and extend it to having someone raising behind you.

As before, preflop there is $40 in the pot.

One person bets, and (as we just discussed) you call the $10 into the total pot of $50 for 5 to 1 (total pot now $60).

But after you call, the next player raises $10, so he makes the total pot $80. (the $60 from before plus the $20 more he just put in)

The original bettor calls the $10 more. Total pot now $90.

Now it’s your turn. You have to call $10 more into a pot of $90, which gives you 9 to 1 odds.

Your original call of the $10 is now simply an amount that is in the total pot.

Sorry, I don’t really want to tackle the next parts of your question because it’s been a while since I’ve read TOP. I’m sure someone else can answer it.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-19-2005, 04:14 PM
DarrenJG DarrenJG is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 7
Default Re: Basic Pot Odds Questions - Please Help a New Guy

Thanks.

This is precisely my confusion. What you are saying is if a raise comes behind you, then your pot odds would actually be 3.5 to 1 since you're putting a total of $20 into a $70 pot for the round (under your scenario).

This runs counter to what Keyser seems to be saying on his last post. His understanding is that the first $10 before you were raised is already in the pot and gone - so the pot odds would actually be 7 to 1 - an additional $10 into a $70 pot, despite the fact that you already put in $10 earlier in the round.

I'm not sure which one is correct.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-19-2005, 04:20 PM
DarrenJG DarrenJG is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 7
Default Re: Basic Pot Odds Questions - Please Help a New Guy

I see what you are saying, and I always figured this is the way to calculate pot odds with a raise behind. However, it appears to me that TOP seems to say otherwise. I'm not sure what is proper.

Unless I am totally missing his point, Bradley, who posted also, seems to say that under your scenario, the odds would be 4.5 to 1, rather than 9 to 1. (Since your total money into the pot for the round would be $20 into a $90 pot.)

This is my confusion. I'm not sure which it is, and this obviously makes a huge difference.

Thoughts?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.