What is a bad beat, really?

[JackTensuited]

Definitional question about a term that is used ad nauseam in poker circles... I'm curious to know what precisely people mean when they call something a "bad beat"?

Is it a bad beat when any hand that is behind ends up ahead at the end of the hand due to a lucky draw?
OR does your opponent have to make an INCORRECT or BAD play and get lucky with a draw to beat you?


How about this hand?

You have A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Opponent has A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Flop comes A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Turn is T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. River is Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Bad beat?

Thanks.

[Bodhi]

Yeah, that's a bad beat that would win me a 7.5k jackpot at the local cardroom.

I think you understand that notion already. A hand that's a big favorite loses to the underdog; that's a bad beat. For example, KK vs QQ, a lot of preflop raising, and a Q flops, or hits on the turn or river. That's a bad beat.

Sometimes we use the term for emphasis when someone played unprofitably to hit their longshot draw against the favorite. For example, someone holding 22 calls a flop bet in a small pot and turns a set. Not only is that terrible play, but your buddy will turn to you and say, "Man, that's a bad beat!"

[Far Superior]

I feel it's a bad beat when the opponent has 2 or less outs to pick up the winning hand.

[cheapsuit]

i would have to differentiate between a bad beat and just being plain unlucky -- a bad beat being worse. like say you go all in preflop with AA and your opponent calls with KK and he hits his set on the flop and wins. i would consider that just plain unlucky and not necessarily a bad beat because your opponent made an okay decision (albeit wrong--but he had no way of really knowing that) calling your all-in with KK. what i would consider a bad beat would be you all in preflop with AA and your opponent calling with 27o and hitting two pair on the flop and beating you.

i would say that a bad beat comes from a player who has no logical right to be in the pot to begin with or has no logical right to stay with the hand as long as he did. so based on the example you gave in your post i think that would be along the lines of just plain unlucky rather than bad beat.

[Macedon]

Cheapsuit is absolutely right.
It's not a bad beat when a Full House loses to a STR8T Flush. That is just fabulous poker at work.

A bad beat is when you have an Ace-high flush, go all-in, your opponent knows you have the flush but decides to chase the str8t flush (with only 2 outs) and catches it on the river. Not that I am still steaming about it.....I'm so over it. Really.
(Motherfuc*er, how could he call that?! How ridiculous!)

[Macedon]

Did I mention that he made his call on the turn?
He had one card to come and only 2 outs to hit it.
And he KNEW I had him beat up to that point.

(Shut up Mace, get over it!)

[steve968574]

It's getting beat by a play that you legitimately had no reason to anticipate.

If you hold KK and go all in pre-flop, and get beat by a QQ w Q on the river, that's not a bad beat. Your opponent's play was not optimal but it was certainly foreseeable. The hand with the better chance got beat--that's just randomness and short-term divergence from the long-term probabilities, not a bad beat.

On the other hand, if you hold KK and the flop is x-x-x rainbow, and then your opponent completes a backdoor flush draw, that's a bad beat.

[Bodhi]

Respectfully disagree.

You're both getting too intellectual about this. A bad beat is just whatever we call a bad beat. If the casino calls it a "bad beat," then it's a bad beat. There are no essential properties that make something a bad beat.

The correct way to understand what bad beats are is to enumerate all of the different scenarios we call bad beats, and then to remark about how some have similarities and some do not.

[Bodhi]

I don't get it. You say a 2 outter (QQ hitting a Q) is not a bad beat, but perhaps a backdoor flush with an Ace is a bad beat? Do you realize that the second hand actually has more outs to beat KK?

[Sandwich]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get it. You say a 2 outter (QQ hitting a Q) is not a bad beat, but perhaps a backdoor flush with an Ace is a bad beat? Do you realize that the second hand actually has more outs to beat KK?

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference being that QQ played the hand reasonably whereas the other hand did not.

Don't you need to know odds and pot sizes before determining whether it's a bad beat? to determine whether the player shouldn't legitimately have been in the hand in the first place?