Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > Limit Texas Hold'em > Medium Stakes Hold'em

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:08 AM
wheelz wheelz is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: London, Ontario, Canda
Posts: 163
Default Re: 10/20 TT Calldown

i think you may have convinced me, so i didn't want to explicitly say that he should raise somewhere. how does calling down save you more when you're trailing as opposed to raise/folding the turn though?
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:37 AM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 10/20 TT Calldown

[ QUOTE ]
i think you may have convinced me, so i didn't want to explicitly say that he should raise somewhere. how does calling down save you more when you're trailing as opposed to raise/folding the turn though?

[/ QUOTE ]
Since we know the villain will not fold his gutshot/overs to a turn raise, calling down has to make more money than raise/folding the turn and checking the river. This is so even if we assume the villain will never 3 bet the turn with a hand the hero is ahead of, thus allowing the hero to always fold correctly. In both cases the hero is investing 2BB, but in the raise the turn example the hero will sometimes not get to see the river since he will fold to a turn 3 bet. So in both scenarios the hero will be investing 2BB but only in the call down scenario will the hero get a chance to spike a set on the river every single time. Thus the hero will win more pots when he calls down.

Calling down can also potentially save the hero money if the villain is capable of 3 betting the turn with a lesser hand than TT. By calling down the hero can save all the pots he wouldve got outplayed off of had he raised/folded the turn.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:44 AM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 10/20 TT Calldown

Through my experience, there have been plenty of times where Villian will cap with AK, 3-bet with AK on the flop and lead the turn in hopes of representing something he does not have. I think it is highly likely that Villian will call down here with AK, so if you play it aggressively like I suggested, you will maximize profit with your tens. I am all about maximizing profit so many times I am aggressive when others might be passive. Against Villian's range of hands, I think aggression is warranted with TT. Just calling is simply wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:59 AM
wheelz wheelz is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: London, Ontario, Canda
Posts: 163
Default Re: 10/20 TT Calldown

i still think it's close though. while i'm on your side now wes, i think CO's range is a bit wider than you do, and there's getting value out of smaller PPs and the possibility of a big ace calling the river UI (after you raise somewhere postflop) to consider.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-29-2005, 01:10 PM
TheHip41 TheHip41 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 856
Default Re: 10/20 TT Calldown

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If we raise this turn, can we fold to a 3-bet? I think the times we're raised off the best hand by a 3-bet are pretty small, so it's probably correct. It would be nice if AK doesn't want to call down our turn raise. Free showdown if he calls the rizzle.

[/ QUOTE ]
The basic theme to my posts is that the hero should not be investing more than 2.5 big bets in this hand postflop. There are 4 lines that meet this objective.

1. Call down
2. Raise flop, call 3 bet, fold turn
3. Raise flop, bet/fold turn, check river
4. Call flop, raise/fold turn, check river

If we knew exactly how our opponent played postflop any of these lines could be the best line. With no real read on how our opponent plays postflop in HU situations like this I think line #1 is the best line since this line allows the hero to minimize his loss when behind and he can never get outplayed off the best hand when ahead. I think line #4, the one you advocated, is the 2nd best line. If I knew my opponent really well I would be more apt to chose lines 2-4 than line 1.

Against someone I dont know very well, HU in a Way Behind/decently ahead situation, I feel the value of showing this hand down without getting outplayed is greater than the value of trying to fold AK before the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just keep calling, because he has you totally stroked, or he is betting hoping you will fold. If he has complete air, like JT, he will fold to the turn raise. This is unlikely.

Most likely, he has AA-JJ, and will either call the turn raise and check the river, or if he has AA-KK, will 3 bet the turn.

If he has AK, he isn't folding the turn raise, and if an A or K or a straight card his the board, he will probably just don't the river, costing you another bet.

On this board vs. this opponent, I'm just calling down, and bet if he checks it. Raising is just charging yourself more to see the SD.

There are plenty of oppoents that will bet 66-99 like this every street, or AQ, or AJ, or Q9s. Just let them bluff off their chips when they are behind.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-29-2005, 01:30 PM
shant shant is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 809
Default Re: 10/20 TT Calldown

[ QUOTE ]
Through my experience, there have been plenty of times where Villian will cap with AK, 3-bet with AK on the flop and lead the turn in hopes of representing something he does not have. I think it is highly likely that Villian will call down here with AK, so if you play it aggressively like I suggested, you will maximize profit with your tens. I am all about maximizing profit so many times I am aggressive when others might be passive. Against Villian's range of hands, I think aggression is warranted with TT. Just calling is simply wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
What about the times he has JJ-AA and takes the same flop 3-bet and turn line? You still raise a flop AND turn bet? How can calling be "simply wrong" if AK is the only hand you put in his range that we beat?
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-29-2005, 01:38 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 10/20 TT Calldown

I dont understand why so many people place him on so many HUGE hands. Yes, he may have one of these. But there are plenty of other hands he might cap with aswell PF. My opinion is that as long you have the best hand and are the favorite you should make him pay as much as possible for his 2nd best hand. Raise him on flop or turn!
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-29-2005, 01:49 PM
shant shant is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 809
Default Re: 10/20 TT Calldown

What range do you put him on?

FWIW, the range I put him on was 88-AA, maybe 77, AKs-ATs, AKo-AJo. Is this range too tight?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-29-2005, 01:54 PM
jason_t jason_t is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Another downswing?
Posts: 2,274
Default Re: 10/20 TT Calldown

You shouldn't raise anywhere and you should call this river.

In spots like this, the guy either sees your 3-bet as an attempt to start a pissing match and he caps in kind or he has a true monster. In either case, you don't want to put yourself in the spot of being pushed off the best hand nor do you want to put in a lot of bets with the second-best hand. It's best to close your eyes and just hit call/call/call.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-29-2005, 02:21 PM
jskills jskills is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: in your Mom
Posts: 769
Default Re: 10/20 TT Calldown

I raise the flop here.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.