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  #11  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:48 AM
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Default Re: 10/20 TT Calldown

An aggressive and very good player can cap from CO in this situation with ANY PAIR. This particular player may cap down to maybe 77 and AK, AQ, AJ.
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  #12  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:49 AM
wheelz wheelz is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 TT Calldown

well, the majority of my playing time came at 6-max tables, so i may tend to give someone capping in a resteal situation less credit than they deserve.
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  #13  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:00 AM
toss toss is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 TT Calldown

I like your line the best. Seems WA/WB doesn't it?
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  #14  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:07 AM
wheelz wheelz is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 TT Calldown

you're not way ahead of 2 overcards
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  #15  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:10 AM
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Default Re: 10/20 TT Calldown

[ QUOTE ]
Calling down with TT is a bad play because you are not giving AK a chance to fold. If he spikes an A or K on the river like this hand, you will lose. I think you must get a raise in on the flop or turn. Personally, I would raise the flop and call a 3-bet. If Villian calls my raise on the flop, I will bet when checked to on the turn. If Villian 3-bets my raise on the flop, I will raise his bet again on the turn and fold to a 3-bet. If he just calls my raise, I will check behind on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
I really dont see what any aggressive line will accomplish in this HU situation. I really dont see what a flop raise will accomplish if youre just gonna call down if the villain 3 bets. I know you didnt actually call down, instead you raised the turn, which is the equivalent of calling down since its the same 2BB investment.

Before you raise this flop, you need to ask yourself this question. If my opponent 3 bets me, am I gonna still invest 2 more big bets in this hand? If the answer is yes, then this flop raise is gonna cost you alot of money in the long run since far too often you are going to get 3 bet and be drawing to 2 outs. This bad event will happen enough times that it will more than cancel out those lucky times that you raise the flop and your oppoenent calls with his 6 outer and he proceeds to miss his 6 outer on the turn or river if he goes to the river.
Poker is a game of maximizing and minimizing. To be simplistic, when we have the advantage we may maximize by raising or calling to slow play. When we are at a disadvantage we may maximize by calling or folding. This situation with TT to me is a clear minimizing situation, I believe the hero will save more money in the long run by just calling down, then he can possibly make by raising on any street to extract some kind of value out of this hand.

The exception to this situation is if the hero can safely fold if the villain 3 bets the flop or turn. If this is the case, then raising is better than calling since raising gives us ironclad information that we can use to make a good fold. If that were the case I would raise the flop and if the villain 3 bet, I would call one more small bet and fold the turn unimproved. Or maybe I would call the flop and raise the turn to put pressure on AK, if I knew the villain would only 3 bet me with a better hand. But with no read on how the villain plays postflop, I believe calling down is the best move.

I hope you can understand that raising this flop and calling a 3 bet and investing 2 more big bets in this hand is a losing proposition. Just calling down in this situation will easily make more money in the long run than your line just from all the money you save when your trailing.
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  #16  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:15 AM
shant shant is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 TT Calldown

For those of you raising the flop or turn, isn't AK/AQ seeing the river here always, especially with the added gutshot outs from the flop?
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  #17  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:23 AM
wheelz wheelz is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 TT Calldown

yeah, so why not charge them to chase?

i'm not sure where i stand on this hand, so i think i'll just keep throwing in random comments without actually saying what i'd like to do.
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  #18  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:36 AM
toss toss is offline
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Default Re: 10/20 TT Calldown

I guess its sort of a compromise since we can also be behind to a higher pocket pair and we don't want a worse pocket pair to find a fold.

Actually a pocket pair won't fold here and may even 3-bet thinking we're donking around with 55. If we raise the flop or turn are we really calling down all the time now if we get 3-bet? What happens if we get 3-bet and an Ace or King falls on the turn or river? Do we fold then?
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  #19  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:43 AM
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Default Re: 10/20 TT Calldown

[ QUOTE ]
If we raise this turn, can we fold to a 3-bet? I think the times we're raised off the best hand by a 3-bet are pretty small, so it's probably correct. It would be nice if AK doesn't want to call down our turn raise. Free showdown if he calls the rizzle.

[/ QUOTE ]
The basic theme to my posts is that the hero should not be investing more than 2.5 big bets in this hand postflop. There are 4 lines that meet this objective.

1. Call down
2. Raise flop, call 3 bet, fold turn
3. Raise flop, bet/fold turn, check river
4. Call flop, raise/fold turn, check river

If we knew exactly how our opponent played postflop any of these lines could be the best line. With no real read on how our opponent plays postflop in HU situations like this I think line #1 is the best line since this line allows the hero to minimize his loss when behind and he can never get outplayed off the best hand when ahead. I think line #4, the one you advocated, is the 2nd best line. If I knew my opponent really well I would be more apt to chose lines 2-4 than line 1.

Against someone I dont know very well, HU in a Way Behind/decently ahead situation, I feel the value of showing this hand down without getting outplayed is greater than the value of trying to fold AK before the river.
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  #20  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:58 AM
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Default Re: 10/20 TT Calldown

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, so why not charge them to chase?

i'm not sure where i stand on this hand, so i think i'll just keep throwing in random comments without actually saying what i'd like to do.

[/ QUOTE ]
I misread the board, I didnt realize the villain had a gutshot draw in addition to his over outs if he had a hand like AK or AQ. This new information however does not change any of my analysis. I would say this though, knowing that AK or AQ wont fold to a turn raise would make me even less apt to raise the turn. Since the villain wont fold this hand, a turn raise would be viewed as a raise for value, but since the hero is already in a Way behind/moderately ahead situation, raising to get more money in the pot is precisely what the hero should not want to do. Whenever someone is in a Way behind/moderately ahead situion in a HU pot, he will almost always do better by keeping his investment in that pot as low as possible. In this situation, saving money the times he is trailing is more important than making more money the times he is ahead.
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